The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!

Avior wrote:

Being or not being a "snowflake" is irrelevant. What we have is an undead that can use the Light, and that is the Lore. Not just any undead, but a Scourge undead.

The funny thing about out light user here is he is a corrupted paladin...Scourge, unlike forsaken, do have living people in it. Same way there are living death knights.

So again...How does his existance justify forsaken using the light?

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It is specified that he can do so because of his personal traits, not because he's some special kind of undead. So what makes you think it's impossible for such a man to die to the plague and then be awakened as a Forsaken?

See above...Also as I have said before he is not forsaken.

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Also, it would be nice of you to specify the origins of the quote, cause it doesn't seem to be canon to me, and, while being quite interesting, it doesn't necessary have to be the only right way to RP a Forsaken priest.

Horde's player guide for the actual Warcraft Role Playing game.

*cough* Since this came up naturally anyway...

Forsaken not being able to channel the Light strikes me as something that seemed like a good idea at the time to someone working on the RPG, then was promptly ignored by Blizzard ever since. Its importance as a part of the lore is vastly overstated by some people...even in the sources that support it, it gets one or two mentions at most, and of mentions in WoW, the centre of the whole expanded universe and the main source of canon, it gets precisely none at all ever. It might be a cool feature if it was made prominent and canon, but until it gets mentioned in WoW (or even a particularly recent expanded universe source) and restated, people can't be expected to know when they make their characters or to give a crap.

Liontooth wrote:

Horde's player guide for the actual Warcraft Role Playing game.

Written over half a decade ago then never mentioned again or brought up in game as something of importance (or at all).

Crowley wrote:

Liontooth wrote:

Horde's player guide for the actual Warcraft Role Playing game.

Written over half a decade ago then never mentioned again or brought up in game as something of importance (or at all).

Yet still there regardless of when it was written.

And if people make a small effort if they want to RP their characters they will find out these things...In fact just look at the amount of people here that know Forsaken are not supposed to use light...I do not play a forsaken at all and yet I know it?

You seem to be under the impression if something has not been touched in a while it is irrelevant...Does it not strike that it has not been touched because they are happy enough with it?

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According to Commander Eligor Dawnbringer's lecture in Wintergarde Keep, Zeliek is, "so strong in his faith, that even in undeath, the power of the light still heeds his call, smiting his foes in battle."

Zeliek is dead, and it wouldn't be very smart of you to argue with that. Not to mention this whole idea of Scourge suddenly having living Death Knights (when it is specified in the cinematics that they have fallen in battle before being raised as DKs) sounds fishy. As for the Death Knight NPCs, i'm not that sure though.

Liontooth wrote:

You seem to be under the impression if something has not been touched in a while it is irrelevant...Does it not strike that it has not been touched because they are happy enough with it?

It's not something you just say then leave to moulder. If true, it would be a massive, central part of one of the main playable races...you'd think something so important would be worth mentioning some time.

Here is the thing...The human paladins were immune to the plague that caused undeath so they could not be Forsaken. Now Zeliek was a member of the Silver Hand which was a paladin order.

He has been made a death knight that can fire holy bolts at people now...

In the end all he is, is the Exception that proves the rule. And he will remain the exception because they went to great lengths to make him that way, He is special and unique and there will not be another.

So even if he has been made undead now it is irrelevant to forsaken using the light

Also paladins can willingly give into the lich king and become Death knights...These however are generally not player Death Knights.

Avior wrote:

Quote :

According to Commander Eligor Dawnbringer's lecture in Wintergarde Keep, Zeliek is, "so strong in his faith, that even in undeath, the power of the light still heeds his call, smiting his foes in battle."

Zeliek is dead, and it wouldn't be very smart of you to argue with that. Not to mention this whole idea of Scourge suddenly having living Death Knights (when it is specified in the cinematics that they have fallen in battle before being raised as DKs) sounds fishy. As for the Death Knight NPCs, i'm not that sure though.

here are some quotes about some well knowen death knights

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Once a wealthy human landowner, the plague corrupted Rivendare and he pledged himself as a death knight. Rivendare’s duty is to round up and murder any human survivors he can find, and he and his patrols do just that.LoC 95 He coordinates the efforts of the Lich King in the Plaguelands. He currently battles with agents of the Argent Dawn sent to Stratholme to kill him.

Once, Baron Rivendare was a wealthy Lordaeron landowner and a friend of Kel'Thuzad. He fell under the necromancer’s sway and helped build and structure the Cult of the Damned. Rivendare then achieved the title and powers of a death knight. Now, Rivendare has his base in Stratholme.

this shows a living death knight, at no times does it say the Baron is undead

and here is some lore about player death knights

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Within the halls of Acherus were mounds of bodies, the corpses of slain heroes gathered by the Scourge to resurrect as death knights. Under the watchful eye of the feared Instructor Razuvious, Scourge necromancers raised bodies chosen by the Instructor and gauged for their worthiness. If they were found worthy, they were attired in the trappings of a "herald of Arthas"; if they were found wanting, they were consumed by hungry ghouls. Also present inside are runeforges, where death knights emblazon their weapons with runes that better aid them in their battles against their enemies. In the Heart of Acherus, other unworthies were kept in chains for initiates to slay in cold blood as part of their training.

all this, can be found on wowwikie with out spends hours looking for it

some lore about undead and the forsaken

In modern times, "undead" refers primarily to either the Scourge or the Forsaken, since nearly half of the human race have since become undead. However, Forsaken player characters and NPCs are for most intents and purposes considered to be "humanoids" in World of Warcraft due to gameplay reasons and do not share all the characteristics of other undead. This is not the case according to the lore in other sources where Forsaken share all the characteristics of standard Undead

and here is lore about forsaken and the light

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Before the time of the Scourge, many of those that would become Forsaken were devout priests of the Light. It would seem, however, that the Light has turned its back on the Forsaken, and they are unable to channel it. In this, the truth of their name becomes apparent.

and again

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The Cult of the Forgotten Shadow is largely based out of the church in Deathknell and the warrior quarter in Undercity. It is a religion that worships and uses the Shadow, and not the Holy Light. The members of the cult are evil and/or chaotic,[14] and are taught to eradicate anything having to do with the Holy Light — and life in general. It is also a religion of divine humanism. In an early form of the religion, a forsaken priest in Deathknell points out that the light and the shadow have both rejected the Forsaken, and power must be earned by themselves — according to a quest in WoW[15] (however, they have since learned how to tap into the shadow).

Liontooth wrote:

Here is the thing...The human paladins were immune to the plague that caused undeath so they could not be Forsaken. Now Zeliek was a member of the Silver Hand which was a paladin order.

He has been made a death knight that can fire holy bolts at people now...

In the end all he is, is the Exception that proves the rule. And he will remain the exception because they went to great lengths to make him that way, He is special and unique and there will not be another.

So even if he has been made undead now it is irrelevant to forsaken using the light

Also paladins can willingly give into the lich king and become Death knights...These however are generally not player Death Knights.

First off, Zeliek:
"so strong in his faith, that even in undeath, the power of the light still heeds his call"

So for starters he's undead, as Avior has already said.

Second, The Scourge:

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# Race(s)
Various:
# Undead humans
# Undead orcs
# Scourge trolls
# Darkfallen
# Vrykul
# Val'kyr
# Vargul
# Ymirjar
# Gnolls
# Blood elves
# High elves
# Dwarves
# Many other races

No live humans there.

Thirdly, The Forsaken:
Granted, the quote you gave about Trevor the Priest comes from the Forsaken page on WoWWiki and it clearly states that Forsaken can't use The Light. However, it is a fairly safe assumption that just as less than half of those who play on SSL use the realm forum, even less look at WoWWiki and other lore areas outside of the game. This means that they go purely on what they find in quests and what their characters can do. Even IF you are right that we should ignore Blizz's retcon on the lore with the game mechanics (or their blatant disregard for it), you're only arguing with the rest of a minority anyway.

Gurfang wrote:

First off, Zeliek:
"so strong in his faith, that even in undeath, the power of the light still heeds his call"

So for starters he's undead, as Avior has already said.

Are you reading what I am posting?

Quote :

Second, The Scourge:

Quote :

# Race(s)
Various:
# Undead humans
# Undead orcs
# Scourge trolls
# Darkfallen
# Vrykul
# Val'kyr
# Vargul
# Ymirjar
# Gnolls
# Blood elves
# High elves
# Dwarves
# Many other races

No live humans there.

You just condradicted yourself in your own quote...Look at the bolded part.

Quote :

Thirdly, The Forsaken:
Granted, the quote you gave about Trevor the Priest comes from the Forsaken page on WoWWiki and it clearly states that Forsaken can't use The Light. However, it is a fairly safe assumption that just as less than half of those who play on SSL use the realm forum, even less look at WoWWiki and other lore areas outside of the game. This means that they go purely on what they find in quests and what their characters can do. Even IF you are right that we should ignore Blizz's retcon on the lore with the game mechanics (or their blatant disregard for it), you're only arguing with the rest of a minority anyway.

Wrong!

There is plenty of examples in quest logs, in game lore and lore mentioned out of game...You will find a vast majority agree with the forsaken using the light and a loud minority try to argue it.

Gurfang wrote:

Second, The Scourge:

Quote :

# Race(s)
Various:
# Undead humans
# Undead orcs
# Scourge trolls
# Darkfallen
# Vrykul
# Val'kyr
# Vargul
# Ymirjar
# Gnolls
# Blood elves
# High elves
# Dwarves
# Many other races

No live humans there.

All quotes taken from WoWWiki

did you not read my post about the Baron

he is ALIVE not undead, like most of the death knights that turned for the Lich King,

Also the Lich King is still alive

not once has he died, he just has a funny helm on his head, making him who he is

so again your wrong

please try again

Liontooth wrote:

Gurfang wrote:

First off, Zeliek:
"so strong in his faith, that even in undeath, the power of the light still heeds his call"

So for starters he's undead, as Avior has already said.

Are you reading what I am posting?

Quote :

Second, The Scourge:

Quote :

# Race(s)
Various:
# Undead humans
# Undead orcs
# Scourge trolls
# Darkfallen
# Vrykul
# Val'kyr
# Vargul
# Ymirjar
# Gnolls
# Blood elves
# High elves
# Dwarves
# Many other races

No live humans there.

You just condradicted yourself in your own quote...Look at the bolded part.

Quote :

Thirdly, The Forsaken:
Granted, the quote you gave about Trevor the Priest comes from the Forsaken page on WoWWiki and it clearly states that Forsaken can't use The Light. However, it is a fairly safe assumption that just as less than half of those who play on SSL use the realm forum, even less look at WoWWiki and other lore areas outside of the game. This means that they go purely on what they find in quests and what their characters can do. Even IF you are right that we should ignore Blizz's retcon on the lore with the game mechanics (or their blatant disregard for it), you're only arguing with the rest of a minority anyway.

Wrong!

There is plenty of examples in quest logs, in game lore and lore mentioned out of game...You will find a vast majority agree with the forsaken using the light and a loud minority try to argue it.

Lion, the "many other races" is after a long list where undead humans have been mentioned, as well as dwarves and trolls. If live humans were a part they'd have been mentioned in the list!

As for being "Wrong!", as well as referring you to what Crowley said about the quote you (and WoWWiki) used I'd also point out that the fact that all priests start off with holy powers would make anyone going through the quests question the legitimacy of anything speaking against being able to use it. The fact that something actually happens should not simply be thrown to the side because you don't like the fact that it's there.

First, about the Rivendare quote. Not only it doesn't state him being alive just as undead in the past, but in fact he's surely been killed as a Stratholme boss before replacing Mograine at Naxx (Yes, that thing is lore, not game mechanics. Game mechanics explains why he can be killed over and over again.). As for the Lich King, i seriously doubt that he's still alive. Human body has its limits, you know, and you can't call Icecrown environment friendly. He needs to eat something from time to time at least...

Second, about Zeliek. He might be the only one, but he's an NPC. You can't deny an opportunity just because it's occupied by a single NPC. On the other hand, where there's one, there surely will be a hundred. And in situations where a hundred is perfectly fine you have to constantly watch for the numbers, because it tends to become a million in no time. For our SSL RP community having one or two Holy Forsaken is perfectly fine. Five is a bit overboard. At twenty Holy Forsaken stop being unique and are only looked down at as a bad attempt to RP. That's what i've been trying to say from the very beginning.

Luko wrote:

Gurfang wrote:

Second, The Scourge:

Quote :

# Race(s)
Various:
# Undead humans
# Undead orcs
# Scourge trolls
# Darkfallen
# Vrykul
# Val'kyr
# Vargul
# Ymirjar
# Gnolls
# Blood elves
# High elves
# Dwarves
# Many other races

No live humans there.

All quotes taken from WoWWiki

did you not read my post about the Baron

he is ALIVE not undead, like most of the death knights that turned for the Lich King,

Taken from the WoWWiki page abotu Rivendare:
"Race Human (Undead)"

Luko wrote:

Also the Lich King is still alive

not once has he died, he just has a funny helm on his head, making him who he is

so again your wrong

please try again

Taken from the page about the Lich King:
"Race(s) Undead Human body, Orc / Human spirit "

Avior wrote:

Second, about Zeliek. He might be the only one, but he's an NPC. You can't deny an opportunity just because it's occupied by a single NPC. On the other hand, where there's one, there surely will be a hundred. And in situations where a hundred is perfectly fine you have to constantly watch for the numbers, because it tends to become a million in no time. For our SSL RP community having one or two Holy Forsaken is perfectly fine. Five is a bit overboard. At twenty Holy Forsaken stop being unique and are only looked down at as a bad attempt to RP. That's what i've been trying to say from the very beginning.

Wrong...He is -the- one and only...There are no more. So no people can't use him as a basis for Forsaken using light.

@Gurfang
Where does it matter where it is stated...The fact it says many more means that living scourge are not out of the question...Most of the cult of the damned are living necromancers under scourge banner.

And you do not seem to be grasping the whole game mechanic thing that allows forsaken to use holy light as a spell...Read Quints post on that. He explained it quite well.

Liontooth wrote:

Wrong...He is -the- one and only...There are no more. So no people can't use him as a basis for Forsaken using light.

There's one, so there can't be more...? That...makes...sense...

I don't get how Sir Zeliek is a very special case when the entire reason for his power is "He's really faithful". Because that's beyond the reach of everyone else on the planet.

Liontooth wrote:

There is plenty of examples in quest logs, in game lore and lore mentioned out of game...You will find a vast majority agree with the forsaken using the light and a loud minority try to argue it.

Christ...you are like a living checklist of shitty, tired, lazy debating fallacies...'There's a load of evidence, I'm just not providing it', 'There's a great big silent, invisible majority on my side out there!'

here is Arthas link

http://www.wowwiki.com/Arthas

look to the right on the little square you will see race

next to race you will see Human

No need for fighting here, let's stick to constructive criticism instead.
This reminds me of the resurrection issue. Surely no one will deny that resurrection is possible, though the only major lore character that's been resurrected, as i remember, is Medivh.

You're also linking a wrong page. Arthas is no more, there's only the Lich King.

Quote :

This article is about Arthas' life as a human. For his existence after being transformed see Lich King.

Crowley wrote:

There's one, so there can't be more...? That...makes...sense...

I don't get how Sir Zeliek is a very special case when the entire reason for his power is "He's really faithful". Because that's beyond the reach of everyone else on the planet.

Have you heard of the term the exception that proves the rule?

Quote :

Christ...you are like a living checklist of shitty, tired, lazy debating fallacies...'There's a load of evidence, I'm just not providing it', 'There's a great big silent, invisible majority on my side out there!'

You are argueing with lore FACTs...The fact that the best people can come up with is a raid boss with fuck all back story says it all really.

Liontooth wrote:

Have you heard of the term the exception that proves the rule?

Since when does it have to be the only exception? The point is to keep it to the numbers where it doesn't become the rule itself.

Avior wrote:

Liontooth wrote:

Have you heard of the term the exception that proves the rule?

Since when does it have to be the only exception? The point is to keep it to the numbers where it doesn't become the rule itself.

But he IS the only exception. How are you going to explain that you are a forsaken that uses light in game? Are you going to say "Well some guy in the scourge can do it?" The main thing that makes forsaken who they are is their detest for the holy light and anyone who uses it.