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 Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.

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Lyranne

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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:11 pm

Thank you, Fae, it means a lot. Even with some of the somewhat pointless fumbling about I manage, this is a subject close to my heart and I'm grateful to all that there's been no snidy comments and that people have remained on topic. All of you have contributed something in some small way, and I mean that.

I'd not defend the show anyway. My worry is that it's junk TV, and though it's predominantly watched by people I'd not associate, the fact is, people will watch it, or else the sentiments of the ignorant people will spread (as does happen). As I say, the poor boy was dragged onto National television and pretty much forced to confront a studio of strangers and defend himself from something he shouldn't even be ashamed of.

In addition, I was disturbed at how little the presenter had done in the way of research, leaving him at a loss and not really sympathising with the boy. Simple understanding of any subject should be a necessary step, which is why this thread exists. I've been asked a few times what I am, and what it means, so hopefully this is going some way to aid in giving facts and sentiments.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:20 pm

Liontooth wrote:
Quote :
And that perhaps someday, more people can be a bit more understanding and accepting.

The problem with that is it is mostly all theory, thus saying people should be more understanding and accepting of it is kind of wrong. I am under the (perhaps stubborn) impression that being born with the "wrong body" seems too far fetched and "perfect" to be a deformity.

Let us see what the guys that get payed for studying this come up with eventually.

I assume you didn't click on the link about hermaphrodites, as that page has several examples, based on genetic fact that you can be in the wrong body for your gender. A male faetus that's immune to testosterone has the XY chromosomes but will appear female (as I've said before). In fact, so feminine are they that no one would know until they try to have babies.

Indeed, another form os hermaphrodism linked on that page is associated with chimerism, which is when one faetus is absorbed by another, which can cause all sorts of genetic confusion. I even saw a programme where a woman had her child taken from her because the DNA didn't match. Only when they took samples of countless parts of her body was she a confirmed case of chimerism and also the mother of her child.

Genetics is, by and large, a difficult subject to fullt understand. When a single gene, or missing chromosome can lead to a serious developmental problem, and where a bigger change has little effect. I am not referring to myself as having a deformity, and have even supplied arguments for it being spychological. However, no one who actually treats transgendered people is under the impression that it is such, because at the end of the day, with such mistakes happening in a myriad of different ways, how can one trust the bdy to be telling the truth about ones gender?
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:40 pm

While I of course support research being done to understand this better, hopefully it might one day lead to a way to prevent it from happening, I don't understand the way the arguments are going right now.

What does it matter if it's psychological or biological? It's there, and it's real. That's the only thing that matters. And there are ways to help those people who have it. Perhaps it's "just" a psychological problem, perhaps they were the gender they were born as after all. Does that change the fact that they will feel right and be able to be happy after surgery? No. They deserve whatever kind of treatment is available, and they deserve those around them to be understanding and helpful.


And I don't want to make any personal attacks, but what you said was awful, Lion. And you too, Avior. How can you suggest that we shouldn't be accepting and helpful towards them? Because scientists aren't sure what caused it? Because it's strange and hard to understand? Oh my god, you can't be serious. I just don't understand how you could ever say that some people don't deserve acceptance. Please, explain, because right now it sounds to me like you're two horrible persons, and I don't want to feel that way about people I thought was friends.
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Lyranne

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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:51 pm

Avior wrote:
Call me transsexualophobic or whatever, but i just don't understand why people should become more acceptiong towards those who can't even accept their own body.

I am quessing you're not really taking into account severe deformities and that which has been cause by man, such as those born when their mother took Thalidamide (a morning sickness tablet), as how can you be serious in not having sympathy and understanding there? I can understand a certain lack of acceptance, but all your sentence actually says is that as far as you're concerned, people who're unhappy with their own body are undeserving of sympathy. Anorexia is a serious illness where the suffered loathes their body (same with bulemia). That it can lead to death, and affect intelligent people is indicative of it being something people should be able to empathise with. And what of dwarves and other who may be unhappy with their body? There doesn't need to be something obviously wrong with it to have a disliking, just as you can be happy with your body, regardless of form. I mention dwarves because some have gron through excrutiating bone lengthening surgery which involves the bones being broekn and held apart so they mend and bridge the gap between both halve, thus making it longer.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:57 pm

The thing about hermaphrodism is that the physical body shows signs of being both male and female, a 3rd gender if you will. Where as your example at the start is of a fully functioning male/female body with a male/female brain or train of thought.

The latter is harder to prove even though they are trying.

Just to explain something a bit better. I meant that people being told to be understanding and accepting that a theory is fact is wrong. Must like religion we all have the ability to accept or deny claims until proven otherwise. At no point in my post did I mention that we should not be helpful to these people in any way.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:11 pm

Ryleen wrote:
Does that change the fact that they will feel right and be able to be happy after surgery? No. They deserve whatever kind of treatment is available, and they deserve those around them to be understanding and helpful.

It's a great thing that there are things like surgery and such to help if it will indeed make them feel better about themselves. Just as long as it's not the taxpayer's money that goes to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:37 pm

Just a misunderstanding, then. Your choice of words made it look like you meant something else than what you did.

I wasn't under the impression that anyone was trying to force people to accept one explanation or another for what may caus transsexualism, sorry if it was any of my posts that did it.

My other question remains though, what difference does it make? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:45 pm

Guess i too should explain myself here.
"Acceptance" was probably a bad choice of wording.
There are those cases of abnormality (and don't try to troll me over wording again, let's just say that what's normal and not is defined by the majority) which simply are. You just have no choice but to accept their existance. These factors shouldn't define your attitude towards those people, and of course they should be treated just like any other. In that way all people are equal as elements of the society.
But there are also things that define our personality. People are free to do whatever they want to themselves, but they can't expect everyone to like it. Life hits some people really hard, and at some point suicide might seem like a way out. Does it make it the only way, or the right way? I think not. For instance, the thought of a surgeon messing with my body just because i didn't like it alone makes me shiver. I just can't imagine myself in the right condition for it, so i couldn't be more "understanding" even if i wanted to. Does this make people who think otherwise wrong in my eyes? Yes. Does it change my attitude towards them in general? Hopefully not. At least i try to avoid discussing topics that i don't approve of. It only brings annoyance and disappointment to both sides, as there are just no "right" answers to some questions.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:45 pm

As I said: It's not something that's easily explained, and yes, hermaphrodites are more obvious (to an extent) though again, I didn't say it was the same, just an example of how the body can 'lie'.

To make it clear is difficult as I can't explain something so abstract as personal thought and feelings in any way that define them as different to another persons. Just as I don't know how a 'normal' person thinks. But as Ry says, the issue's not what causes it, just a general explanation. I just hope this thread's done enough as to help even some people gain some insight, even if it leaves more questions.

Earlier in the year (I think it was May) I went to the Gender Identity Clinic in London and had my first conference. The questions I was asked were simply how long I've felt like this, how sure I am that it's the right choice and so on. They also asked me to have a blood test to measure my hormone levels. The methods of treating/aiding those in my situation varies on how the individual feels. Some do wish to be the gender they're born, whilst most others choose not to. I've chosen not to, simply because I don't feel male. The idea of suppressing my current feelings and thoughts to bring to the surface ones that I have never had seems far too much of an ordeal. Yes, surgery's equally stressful, but it's the choice I feel comfortable with.

My next appointment is in December and it'll be then I'll know if/when I start on hormones. I should also be given some general dates for when certain elements are likely to happen.

And not all forms of hermaphrodism show signs of both genders. Again, pseudo hermaphrodites would be nearly impossibe to recognise as such until a DNA test was done. As the article states, the closest to noticing would be small abnormalities to the gentalies that to all intents and purposes, the doctor would actually be having to look for. Even then, there's no guarantee they'd see anything 'odd' with the child.

Regarding a third gender, that again was touched in the link I posted, and personally, I consider all such labels as exactly that. We are who we are, and provided no one is hurt, what does it matter what is the cause for our beliefs is? a person has faith in God or science, or both, just as I have faith in my stance that I was born the wrong gender.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:54 pm

Avior wrote:
Guess i too should explain myself here.
"Acceptance" was probably a bad choice of wording.
There are those cases of abnormality (and don't try to troll me over wording again, let's just say that what's normal and not is defined by the majority) which simply are. You just have no choice but to accept their existance. These factors shouldn't define your attitude towards those people, and of course they should be treated just like any other. In that way all people are equal as elements of the society.
But there are also things that define our personality. People are free to do whatever they want to themselves, but they can't expect everyone to like it. Life hits some people really hard, and at some point suicide might seem like a way out. Does it make it the only way, or the right way? I think not. For instance, the thought of a surgeon messing with my body just because i didn't like it alone makes me shiver. I just can't imagine myself in the right condition for it, so i couldn't be more "understanding" even if i wanted to. Does this make people who think otherwise wrong in my eyes? Yes. Does it change my attitude towards them in general? Hopefully not. At least i try to avoid discussing topics that i don't approve of. It only brings annoyance and disappointment to both sides, as there are just no "right" answers to some questions.

No one's trolling here. I understand what you mean, and I am aware of how hard it is to be truly empathetic to a condition that one sees as almost alien. I don't expect people to accept me or anyone else with open arms and no questions asked. Human nature prevents such an idealogy.
However, I do believe that at least explaining things helps put a more truthful face on what transexualism is, rather than simply leaving it with such mythology that the media perpetuates. It does us all a disservice not to learn about new things, to try and expand our horizons, and I know from most people that the mere thought of surgery is scary.
That's only a part of it though. They don't rush into it, and it's really just the final touches.
To be blunt, seeing myself as a girl means I physically can't function 'normally'. That's not to say that sex is all that's on my mind, and some things can never be rectified (like not having a womb). But again, that's only the physical aspect of transexualism.

A man that can't achieve an erection takes medicine to allow him to perform as he feels he should. Though a poor comparison, what difference is there between taking viagra to have sex and taking hormones to be closer to how you percieve yourself? It's all a feeling of confidence, is it not?
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:06 pm

Hinun wrote:
It's a great thing that there are things like surgery and such to help if it will indeed make them feel better about themselves. Just as long as it's not the taxpayer's money that goes to it.

Why? If it's accepted as a genuine medical condition then why is there a problem for taxpayers money to be spent on it.

Your tax money gets wasted on things of much less value.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:23 pm

Lyranne wrote:

A man that can't achieve an erection takes medicine to allow him to perform as he feels he should. Though a poor comparison, what difference is there between taking viagra to have sex and taking hormones to be closer to how you percieve yourself? It's all a feeling of confidence, is it not?
Well... Yeah, you're probably right. I can understand it... just not feel like it Razz

Oh, and i'm quite certain i've seen one particular troll posting somewhere in this thread not so long ago... Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:45 pm

Avior wrote:
Lyranne wrote:

A man that can't achieve an erection takes medicine to allow him to perform as he feels he should. Though a poor comparison, what difference is there between taking viagra to have sex and taking hormones to be closer to how you percieve yourself? It's all a feeling of confidence, is it not?
Well... Yeah, you're probably right. I can understand it... just not feel like it Razz

Oh, and i'm quite certain i've seen one particular troll posting somewhere in this thread not so long ago... Wink

thats because you made your self look like a dick... and i wasnt trolling just pointing that out, as you came out with a comment that was rather unfitting to this thread and a view that should be kept to your self
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:06 pm

Luko wrote:
Avior wrote:
Lyranne wrote:

A man that can't achieve an erection takes medicine to allow him to perform as he feels he should. Though a poor comparison, what difference is there between taking viagra to have sex and taking hormones to be closer to how you percieve yourself? It's all a feeling of confidence, is it not?
Well... Yeah, you're probably right. I can understand it... just not feel like it Razz

Oh, and i'm quite certain i've seen one particular troll posting somewhere in this thread not so long ago... Wink

thats because you made your self look like a dick... and i wasnt trolling just pointing that out, as you came out with a comment that was rather unfitting to this thread and a view that should be kept to your self

Actually, your post is not fitting for this thread as you are not willing to accept that someone doesn't empathise with someone who is beyond his understanding.

This thread is about the truth behind what Lyranne is going through and as such having people post truthfully about their opinions is far more helpful and healthy than people not posting if they are against the idea in any way. How else can issues be addressed if they are not raised? Rolling Eyes
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Lyranne

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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:00 am

I don't mind people not 'getting' it. I'd rather they were at least honest about that so I can help in some way reach a point where they at least realise there's another point of view.

Even though people I grew up with didn't know what I am, I was still bullied for not being their percieved ideal of 'normal'. Partly because of the music I liked (Black Sabbath and Motorhead were my favourite groups back then, along with Frank Zappa, Bowie, etc), which most people my age had never heard of. Partly because I was shy, too. So for me, 'normal' has always been associated with not very nice people who have little in the way of intelligence.

Take this as an insult or as a compliment, but I've not met many people through WoW that are actually 'normal', or even the type to label so readily as those I grew up with.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:02 am

Mind you, i never called any names here...
And why would anyone take my comment on their account if they weren't trolling in the first place?..
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:04 am

Lyranne wrote:
Take this as an insult or as a compliment, but I've not met many people through WoW that are actually 'normal'

Of course, this is due to the nature of the average RPer and gamer.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:40 am

I am normel cuz I liek boobes and haff penor. :D


/sarcasm

Normal is a silly word.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:16 am

I really love your courage Sarah. I am hoping for your "transformation" (for a lack of better word). About a month ago I met a new friend who is preop FtM transgender. We have become great friends over this last few weeks. So I have come to understand your situation more and more. I know how hard and depressing the situation can be or you. I really hope you get all the help you need. If you ever need to talk or just any other kind of support just poke me on MSN, I am there for you.

In general I think that what body you are born in is a very difficult thing I don't think that you need to be just male or female. I am legally a male but I can honestly say that I feel that I am less of a male than what the norm in society thinks. A lot of times I can feel like a female. What I want to get by this is that I am absolutely sure that you can feel that the body you have is not the correct one, it does not only need to be the different gender of the body.

Normal is just a silly word that does describe a family with 2.3 children. I am not sure I would like to see the 0.3 child in the family. No one is normal, everyone has something that not everyone else have. I love that people are unique and are as far away from normal as they might be.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:18 pm

Gurfang wrote:
Lyranne wrote:
Take this as an insult or as a compliment, but I've not met many people through WoW that are actually 'normal'

Of course, this is due to the nature of the average RPer and gamer.

Normal isn't rate-able. Tough I think people with boring lives are normal. Normal as in: School, Sport, Social Stuff.
I don't know, we all are normal from our own perspective.

Btw, I think I'm pretty normal and basic and... meh. boring.

And some reactions here are just pathetic.

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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:19 pm

Quintilius wrote:
Let's just end any uncertainty on the subject with a very easy question;

Sarah, can you parallell park a car?
And this made me lol Quint Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:33 am

Wow.. A nice post. I can really empathise about this. Sounds really frustrating. Being able to write about it like that is really touching. Would make a nice book one day;) *hug*
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:43 am

Indeed a very brave post Lyranne, and i wish you good luck in your endeviours.

However, i guess im more like Luko on the subject. Before you reach the mark of adulthood (then i mean in the sense that the body is fully evolved, which many means is not till past 20's) how can anyone be certain of anything. I know many people have this issue, and i even suspected one of my friends of having this problem. Growing up i had this friend, a girl, who were by many seen as this girl with some identity disorder. She cut her hair as a boy, dressed as a boy and acted like a boy, not to speak hang out with mostly boys and not very interested in anything with girls. At this time we were ofc all kids - this was in my years 10 to 16, so none of us had anything against it and we all thought she was this cool person to be with, even tho i know some parrents had "issues" with it. When we were 16 we moved on to collage and our ways split. I studied at my collage, my parrents moved so i didnt return to that town till many years later. Think i was 21 last i was there.

Meeting that "girl" again sorta supprised me, as i'd actually expected something of a sex change or atleast some gay relationship. (Gay relationship is the same as hetrosexiual ones in the sense that there is a masculine and femenin part of the relationship). I would think she would fit the masculine part in an gay relationship.

But, however, all my assumptions were shot down as when i finally got to meet her (was visiting alot of people on that trip) she was now this very beautifull woman, long hair, in a dress, a 1.5 year old son and a husband. It was nice seeing her again and nice to see the change in her.

Anyways, my point is that i get why many parrents get this issue as an "phase" and why they are worried about their kids wanting a sex change. Firstly because they are after all -just- kids, they are in many ways not mature enough to grasp the seriousness of such a desition. There is alot of thoughts and views i had as a 17 year old which i no longer have, being bit older and wiser in the ways of people and the world. I know that what you describe is indeed a serious issue which people should be alowed to do something about, but what im pointing out is - at what age ?

I've seen many documentries about men changing sex, some where the stories are very sad, that they were married men and that their families left em and all, but atleast now they felt free and that they were themselves. Then you have the other part, where they also were married men, but the wife were such an outstanding person that they said "i married the person, not the sex" and continued being married to their now sex-changed "husbands".

I wish all those who do this good luck, and i really do wish they get a better life. However, it is imperrative that this thing is -certain- and to be certain i belive one has to wait to atleast 20 before such operations are issued. Yes, you can debate that your life might be a "living hell" for 20 years, but then again 20 years is alot shorter part of your life than should this be done by a mistake. That this was done to someone who had just a "phase". Imagine feeling like this, have a sex change, then at the age of say 22 really feel like a woman again, knowing you were born a woman, but are now a man and that an operation back again is practicly impossible. (Might be it is, but i can imagine its quite abit of "delicate" stuff being destroyed in such an operation)

If i had a kid with such an disorder i would do everything in my power to help them out with their problems, but, i would not sign any papers for a sex change. In norway you can do that yourself at the age of 18, and at 18 my "powers" as a parrent is gone. If my child at 18 desided to go through with it i would back it up and she would still be my kid no matter the sex. But i do believe its important to not do anything this big too fast on the feelings of a say a 15 year old.

For all i know it might just be that you have to be 18 to do such an operation, i dont know. And American TV, as i call any TV shows such as Ophera, Dr.Phil, scandal shows (no matter what coutnry its from) are just that. People will say anything, cry about anything and argue about anything to earn a buck and their 15 mins of fame. I dont believe anything i hear or see on those shows, its for entertainment purposes only.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:25 pm

I finally forced myself to read through the most of these walls of text, and I have to admit, it was worth.
Sarah, this was a very brave and honest confession, for which I admire you a lot. There are so many misconceptions about transsexuality, it is good that you made certain points clear.
On the issue what Ryleen raised (brain vs. body), I think that the genetalia develop in an earlier phase of epigenesis than the brain, so in most cases it is the brain that takes a different direction of development what the chromosomes determine. However, naturally, the brain will not accept that it is wrong, and will think that it is the body that is wrong. But even if the case is this, it doesn't matter - you are what your brain (mind, soul, use any synonym) tells you are.
And I hate those TV shows too, unfortunately we have such crap in Hungary too.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:18 pm

Snicka wrote:
I finally forced myself to read through the most of these walls of text, and I have to admit, it was worth.
Sarah, this was a very brave and honest confession, for which I admire you a lot. There are so many misconceptions about transsexuality, it is good that you made certain points clear.
On the issue what Ryleen raised (brain vs. body), I think that the genetalia develop in an earlier phase of epigenesis than the brain, so in most cases it is the brain that takes a different direction of development what the chromosomes determine. However, naturally, the brain will not accept that it is wrong, and will think that it is the body that is wrong. But even if the case is this, it doesn't matter - you are what your brain (mind, soul, use any synonym) tells you are.
And I hate those TV shows too, unfortunately we have such crap in Hungary too.

The danger of the mass consumed media is exactly that it's lowest common demominator trash. I remember when a male-to-female was on a reality TV show and happened to be from Portugal, so the tabloids ran garish titles such as 'Portu-geezer' and so on. I've seen even worse about, and for many, they do still assume transexuals and gays are the same thing.

Huyana, I understand your view, but at the same time, they were only perceptions made by others. Did she as a teenager ever imply she was confused about her gender? I'm not saying that people don't change their minds, but some people do like to dress in a certain way, regardless of how they feel inside (as with transvestites).

I don't think anyone in my situation, regardless of their age would actually rsh into any decision unless they were sure. It's not like a nose or boob job where the effects are simply aesthetic. It's adjusting how the world as a whole percieves you. I'm glad in a way, that so many of my online friends thought I was female before they new anything about me. I'd certainly not suggest, even to another person like me, that they rush into anything. But most people do know what they desire for themselves.
I only know from my own experience how terrifying it was to tell my parents. I feared they'd shun me (which was foolish considering they're great parents), and I still even now feel a pang of guilt that they will lose a son.. Or rather that their perception of me is forced to change.

I am very glad to see so much positive feedback from you all.
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PostSubject: Re: Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.   

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Some little titbits and facts about transgenderism and gender dysphoria.
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