Sunday 18 Jan Naxx Run

We raided on Wednesday, and we were two shades of awesome.

Sunday afternoon will be continuation day, I've posted calendar invites in game, and I'll be managing signups from here in future again.

Post me in game, post here, or speak to me if you'd like to be added. If you're not able, or would prefer, you can speak to Garviel, Alaster, Archnazg, or Lyranne in your respective guilds to be added.

Invites at 13h30 and 13h45, thereafter you'll lose your spot if we can find a replacement. Places are first accept, first serve. 4 tanks ( 2 are OT ) 7 healers, and 19 dps.

Raid starts at 14h00 server time.

Signups:

Alaster (DPS)
Archnazg (DPS)
Daymar (DPS)
Gharshag (DPS)
Kasimir (DPS)
Lyranne (Healer/DPS/Tank)
Nerissa (Healer)
Nofec (DPS)
Quint (Tank)
Shalda (Tank?/DPS)
Stiiko (Tank)
Tarum (Healer)
Taupod (DPS)
Taysir (Tank/DPS)
Toulen (Healer?/DPS)
Xoran (DPS)
Cassidy (DPS)
Vexacus (DPS)
Makhail (Tank/Healer/DPS)

If you have room for a nab-lock, I wouldn't mind to join this sunday.

if 25 man, i can dps, heal or tank according to whats needed

but for the love of god, if u want fair loot distribuation, dont let arch ML.....

I'll be raid leading this week, so I'll be master looter too.

It'll be a simple roll if you need system, but for gods sakes people, if someone else desperately needs an upgrade, you should consider passing.

Also, one upgrade per slot per raid, so if you win the epic shoulders off a random boss, you can't roll on the tier shoulders, so just make sure whatever you roll on is suited to you.

stats in diffrent specs:

Prot:
25.8k HP unbuffed, uncrushable (SBV = EH)

Retri:
3.1k AP unbuffed, 25% crit (in pve gear)

holy:
18k+ mana pool, 30%+ crit, 1.7k SP unbuffed. 1.13 FoL with judgment up

and only let ppl who actually did their job roll aswell plz

I thought the idea was to let in the Rpers (us).

aiming to last run i was with arch as ML. 1st boss in plague wing. i was MT'ing and some other pala from HoS was OT. he was supposed to pickup adds. but instead of that, the OT just tried to overaggro me (didnt manage though, i was better geared and know how to tank), so i ended up tanking adds AND the boss. doing Mt and OT job at the same time. now, the epic tanking boots drops, one of the few really good upgrades i need (only got some crappy blues atm) and i roll. now, the OT who didnt do his job, even though i said repetedly in raid and 2 /rw for him to ignore boss and pickup adds (used LoH and HoP to save healers), he rolled and got higher then me and i lost the item. now i dont mind if ppl do mistakes, but when the person aswell admits (to arch) that he was trying to overaggro me, leading to healers beeing defencless unless i had picked em up aswell as tanking the boss.

now when such a thing happend, i find it that the OT who didnt do his job, even when told what to do several times, he shouldnt be allowed to roll on the item.
now the Ot was a guild member of arch, so ofc he wants him to get a upgrade. and regardless if i got better gear then the OT, i really needed those boots and i did my job AND his. meaning he shouldnt be allowed to roll like the drood healer who managed to get locked out (lawl xD)

anyway. what i ment with my comment is this:
i dont care if ur great or poorly geared. aslong as u try the best u can and stick to the job assigned to you, you have the right to roll on any drops that u can use that are an upgrade to you (folloing DC's looting rules ofc, 1 upgrade each slot), casters should look into themself and think before rolling on "healing" gear aswell.

when u DONT do your job, meaning ignoring tasks given to you during a boss fight, should be treated as he was locked out during the event, aka no right to roll on the items. i deem this fair simply coz those who actually do what they are supposed to, should get gear, not those who's just along for the ride.

ignore dps meters, watch what the raid dose. aslogn as u down a boss you should be happy, regardless of the diffrence in dps in those in the raid. but when someone is not doing their job at all, then that person should be told so and lose the right to roll if this is the case during a boss (not talking about ignoring/forgettin a couple times or suminth,g but compleatly ignoring it like the OT in the run).

anyway, i have found out i have to pass on this sundays raid due to me and my gf are going to go and look at some apartments we might rent. so sign me off for this one.

That's a bit of a difficult thing to specify though, for example, what if I spend the entire fight ( As a dps ) Misdirecting adds, and such to the offtank, and as such, I end up at the bottom of the dps charts, does that mean I failed at dps? And I can't roll?

I know that's not quite what happened, and this is a pretty extreme example, but where do I draw the line? What if, on Loatheb, ( A 1 tank fight ) some tanking gear drops, does only the tank who did the tanking get to roll?

The loot rules have allways been that if you want something roll on it, but if you become known as an arse, you will just stop being invited. This is a casual group, we are there to enjoy. If one player is going to spoil that, then that player, whether it's his intent or not, shouldn't be here.

So, I guess the easiest thing, is to keep a record. I won't moderate loot too strictly, but if you don't pull your weight, or you don't listen, or make a general mess of a boss fight, not doing your set job, your name will be listed, and if you're caught again, then it'll be decided whether we want you in the raid.

I'll have to make a fair system, and give clear reasoning, and the player will have a chance to explain their actions. In the end, I want to enjoy the content, find a challenging boss, and get some loot.
In that order.

Well yes, that insident in that raid was rather stupid. However, this isnt the place to bring it. This is just a raid signup, and after reading through my last post on the matter of looting i think most attending will bare in mind that for any of them to see content, they have to bring their A-game and think of the raid as a whole, else there will be a natural stop in progress, simply because they cant move on.

Chow, your idea for this is awsome - to see content without having to leave the guilds you love. However, that aint going to get you through 25 man naxx, not to speak of the even higher raids coming. For people who want to see content, loot is alpha-Omega, and people want to do it right. I cant attend this raid myself unfortunatly, but i think the rule that was suggested to you about one-slot-pr-raid is going to be an improvement.

As about where to draw the line, for dps its abit harder to spot - but in most cases someone does, even if not raidleader does. A good hearted whisper to direct the person into doing the right thing is often all thats needed, and to create an enviorment where its safe to ask "noobish" questions. How else do one learn. However, if that person dont want to listen, or is rude or just seek to do stuff his "im leading on dps, im leading on dps - uh, im leading on aggro, im leading on aggro" way, he should be removed from raid. It also aint so bad to give raid leader a whisper about this. He or she has last word in the raid, and should speak to the person in whisper aswell before making anything "public". When it comes to tanks/healers its more easily spotted, which made the situation makhail tells about, crystal clear. But its also a reason why tanks/healers tend to get blamed when stuff go bad.

Anyways, nuff of this - sign up those who want, and the best of luck to yous all.

Oh, btw - My pug group im going with nowdays cleard heroic naxx last night *proud*

Have a good weekend fellas!!

Chow, thanks for adding me but looks like I'm gonna have to miss this afterall.

First I need to go and pick my car up from the party I went to last night, then some IRL shit to sort out.

Have fun anyways guys

Makhail wrote:

aiming to last run i was with arch as ML. 1st boss in plague wing. i was MT'ing and some other pala from HoS was OT. he was supposed to pickup adds. but instead of that, the OT just tried to overaggro me (didnt manage though, i was better geared and know how to tank), so i ended up tanking adds AND the boss. doing Mt and OT job at the same time. now, the epic tanking boots drops, one of the few really good upgrades i need (only got some crappy blues atm) and i roll. now, the OT who didnt do his job, even though i said repetedly in raid and 2 /rw for him to ignore boss and pickup adds (used LoH and HoP to save healers), he rolled and got higher then me and i lost the item. now i dont mind if ppl do mistakes, but when the person aswell admits (to arch) that he was trying to overaggro me, leading to healers beeing defencless unless i had picked em up aswell as tanking the boss.

now when such a thing happend, i find it that the OT who didnt do his job, even when told what to do several times, he shouldnt be allowed to roll on the item.
now the Ot was a guild member of arch, so ofc he wants him to get a upgrade. and regardless if i got better gear then the OT, i really needed those boots and i did my job AND his. meaning he shouldnt be allowed to roll like the drood healer who managed to get locked out (lawl xD)

anyway. what i ment with my comment is this:
i dont care if ur great or poorly geared. aslong as u try the best u can and stick to the job assigned to you, you have the right to roll on any drops that u can use that are an upgrade to you (folloing DC's looting rules ofc, 1 upgrade each slot), casters should look into themself and think before rolling on "healing" gear aswell.

when u DONT do your job, meaning ignoring tasks given to you during a boss fight, should be treated as he was locked out during the event, aka no right to roll on the items. i deem this fair simply coz those who actually do what they are supposed to, should get gear, not those who's just along for the ride.

ignore dps meters, watch what the raid dose. aslogn as u down a boss you should be happy, regardless of the diffrence in dps in those in the raid. but when someone is not doing their job at all, then that person should be told so and lose the right to roll if this is the case during a boss (not talking about ignoring/forgettin a couple times or suminth,g but compleatly ignoring it like the OT in the run).

No offence, but this entire post sounds far too elitist. As Oppy said, the aim, as far as I can remember, was for RPers to be able to raid if they wanted. As soon as you start dictating based on "skill" it gets far too serious. Sure, people should try and do their best, but if people's best isn't good enough for some here then I'd suggest that they need to look for a raid guild.

The more "serious" you get, the more you need to look for a straight PvE guild and less for a bunch of RPing friends.

I'm sure most people try hard, but we're here for fun, are mostly mature and I'd respectfully suggest we keep that balance. I'm sure, under Chow's supreme guidance, we'll be fine

I do not understand the "Don't get too serious" argument. Well, I can understand it to some extent, but why is so often believed that RP'ers suck in PVE and that's okey?

I can understand that we shouldn't get too "serious" in the way that if someone fucks up he doesn't get yelled at, loses ability to get loot or get raid kicked. We can afford more casual an cozy atmosphere than that.

However - If someone claims that it is enough for an RP'er to just go to a raid to see the place and it doesn't really matter if they wipe cuase seeing the first part of the instance is enough to entertain a simple minded RP'er, then it is my opinion that that someone is underestimating the players purely based on them being RP'ers.

Yes, it is fun to come along to raids just to see the content and wipes do not matter much as one is just generally happy to get the oppurtunity to the see the "big boy" places. (no, Oppy I do not refer to any kind of the places you frequent)

But this part of the fun loses it's appeal fairly quickly. The third time you go into a raid instance you are no longer there for the novelty or the sightseeing. You've seen it before. This time you are there for progress. You want to see more of the raid. You want to see next boss. You want to master the new boss tactics and you want to kill him. You wan't to have a sence o achievement - without achievement it seems pointless in the long run. Novelty brings you only so far.

And wow raiding is thus that if you want to progress your gear has to progress as well, so you can be tough enough to actually stand a chance against the next boss you want to kill. So naturally loot plays an important part. If loot progression was not important in raiding I wouldn't given a rats ass about what gear I have. I do not wear my gear so I can stand idling in Dalaran and hope passersby will /inspect me so I can do an Epic Wank everytime they do. No, I do it because I want to be prepared for the next progress achievement. I do not want to cause a raid wipe coz I couldn't take the bosses hits coz my armor was too shitty.

Besides loot progression the cooperation in a raid is also important. It is important that every person in the raid does its designated job so things runs smoothly. And if someone is fucking something up then it should be allowed to say "Scuse me chap, I see what you do there and I apperciate that you try, but what if you tried this instead? Thanks" One should be able to point out things that will lead to smoother cooperation, though ofcourse avoid the raging PVE-guildleader yelling and deduction of DKP-points and whatnot. Casual does not mean chaos, but rather a more relaxed tone.

To me personally performance matters because I do not want others having to work around me, I want to pull in the same direction as everyone else. To me loot matters because I want to have a sense of improvement and being more prepapred for things to come. Though still I am fairly casual on both areas, I do not spend hours fine reading all sorts of guides and neither do I autisticly grind for that special loot item day in and day out.

In my opinion being "Casual" does not mean that people run around screaming like headless chickens and doing fuckall - and being fine with it cause we're supposed to be "casual". It also does not mean that one supposedly becomes elitist the moment one starts to discuss looting.
To me it means that the pacing of the raiding is casual and comfortable. We don't need to hurry anywhere or get be among the guilds that farm the most difficult places first or having the best equipped player base. It means that everyone should get a chance to get along, however if you want to stay longer than the "Gee whizz this place looks awesome lolol" period then some effort from you would be appreciated. Wiping is not the end of the world, but if it happens countless times during a raid it becomes tedious and expensive for everyone involved and a real effort to figure out why we wipe and how to prevent it should be made. So a comfortable pace, but it has to atleast show some proof that it is going somewhere, cause jogging on the spot and not getting anywhere is not fun, no matter what you do, raiding or any other thing. Sex even. Yeah. Sex. Mm. Sex. uh.. and for that.. it need at least some effort. Not for the sex, well that too, but i meant for having fun. In raiding. By getting somewhere.

SRS POST

I just updated my free WoW subscription again ... oh my, killed by Quint's wall of teh textz0r! /swoon

(er ... yeah, Marius, I agree/disagree/tl;dr* )

The old guys cant read my wall of text.. Couldn't find your glasses? Mwhahaha!

Cheeky blighter. Don't make me beat the shit out of you with my walking stick.
Now just to take my brain medicine...

Honestly, Quint, I haven't read more than your opening paragraph. However, From that I can see where you are aiming at.
I wasn't trying to say that RPers only like seeing a place. I personally like to achieve stuff if I do raiding, mainly to get to see particular bosses but also the odd bit of kit is nice too. But whilst some RPers will also be skilled in PVE, others won't be. I reckon I can be a half-decent tank with a warrior (and probably could be as a DK too if I tried) but I wouldn't come up to the ability a raiding guild would require, mainly because I just don't have the time to put into WoW. I don't think that anyone in my situation should have to suffer because someone else has a negative view of someone's abilities, especially given that a lot of people here have a lot of other stuff to do outside WoW and so don't have the time to become amazingly good and know exactly what they are to be doing all the time. Hell, the only reason I can play a tank is because I don't have to focus on much besides the bosses most of the time!
The post I quoted came across as "If you can't raid properly then you don't get the epics!" which, from my recollection of the start of this and the TBI before it, is not what it is all about. Sure, there are RPers who can do damned well when raiding, but there are ALSO those who do their best and don't do as well and this raiding thing is supposed to be for all, not just the best of us.

Heh Gurf.. Instead of replying to your post I'd rather just ask you to read my whole post I see what you mean, but what you're answering to is not anything in my post.

The post is also more aimed to the raiding rp'ers in general as there as been abit of discussion around this here, ingame and on vent and that particular discussion is not about "No skills no epics".

Also Gurf, the post you replied to was sort of put out of context. It was a pug me and my brother attended, and something happend there that annoyed us both. However, even tho maybe posted while overly agitated, what makhail means is that give credit where credtis due. Let me put his example this way.

Your at a boss, you need two tanks. One for the boss and one to pick up adds so healers dont get squished. The first tank charges into the boss and start tanking him, however, you misunderstood the situation and work on the boss aswell. The other tank writes in the chat for you to pick up the adds, but you somehow misses it, and still try to overaggro him on the boss, as you think you are to. So, he picks up the adds and tanks both adds and boss during the whole fight. Because his gear is better than yours you have no chance of taking the boss aggro off him. Miracolously, we down the boss with only one tank tanking, and there drops some pair of epic tanking boots, that even the well geard tank needs as an upgrade from the pair of blues he's wearing.

The rolls are up, and you win.

This is what Makhail means, that in this situation, you are to see that you did not controbute anything to the fight, and should be man enough to admit that the tank who tanked the boss AND the adds, should get the epic tanking boots.

Furthermore, me nor makhail has anyting against whiping - even mercilessly at times - however all we ask is that even tho there is a roll system, that we look into ourselves and use some common sense.

If i managed to be afk larger parts of a bossfight, or even locked out - i would not roll on healing gear, simply because i would not think i deserved it.

And as Quint says, being RPers dont mean its alright to show up naked to a raid, or in pure PvP gear. Where has everyone gotten the idea that RPers dont raid, or dont know how to? All this means for us is that we -can- raid, but we have no aims of being first or best in any way - we just want to have it done. And the most important thing here isnt to promote that its alright to suck, because if you do you will hinder the raid in its progression. What we are to promote tho is to have a safe enviorment where its alright to fuck up and not get torn appart by abusive talk ect. We're mature, most of us anyways, and as such lets learn by doing. But at the same time be big enough to admit that "hey guys, my gear aint good enough yet - i will just be hindering yous" if that is the pressure point.

Most of us have already posted on the thread where people can whisper us for help ect - its not like we cant help people gear up in heroics/whatever when we're not raiding.

know the funny thing about WoTLK is? Gear is at its most simple to get.

Heroics + badges = same level of loot you would get from naxx 10

try getting epic tanking boots m8 not to be seen for badges or heroics, trust me. i'v checked xD

and yes, my post was mostly around that specific pug, but also a little note that if one guy do the job for 2, and the 2nd guy is just wanking or sumthing duriong the whole encounter, it would be unfair (in my eyes atleast) that the one who just "wanked" got the loot over the one who actually did the job.

Simple thing is to make sure that there is an agreed system before the raid. If the system is used and some guy who didn't do as much as another wins then that's just the way things go. Saying "He/I did more than him to get this kill" is far too serious for what is, after all, a raid group for RPers who want to experience (and, yes Quint, progress!) raid content. As I said before, if you make it serious then you might as well go and join a raid group or turn this thing into a raiding guild because the initial thought IIRC was purely about RPers raiding for enjoyment, not getting all hot and bothered about who gets what gear.

Gurf, you can say that all you want - that this is for fun, no one cares about loot, we want to see the place, its supposed to be enjoyable for RPers.

Fact of the matter is still that such things aint gonna get you anywhere. What your gonna get is that people will get fed up with whiping at the same boss every week with a raid with misgeard tag-alongs. People will stop thinking its fun, and will leave elsewhere. At the end of the day its really just about the "purple pixels" as you call it, as its those items that will in the end ensure that the raid can go on and see more content. Why else would you raid?

And even tho this is amongst mature friends or people who know each other so-so, its even more important to have a system that gives those who actually have worked regulary on progress an edge, but dont rule out the new guy. For what i've seen in here people seem to have an alright take on the suggested system of one-item-pr-slot-each-raid(With current improvements).

I for one am way sick of this discussion, it started as a "hey, give this some thought" thing and it got blown out of the water by the people who enjoy getting free epics for little work. Why else would people actually have such a big problem with alittle more organizing around the raids?