Raid loot and looting

Hi there peeps! Had my first run at 25 naxx today with you people, and it was pretty good

However, have to take up a point which i find rather important when it comes to raid and the people we raid with.
After downing the second boss at spider wing, the following necklace dropped.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40071

There were two resto shamans in the raid, myself and Blood...something. To make a long story short, the neck went to a mage.

Im not here to nag or whine or banter about this, but to point out a thing that i mean will make raids more enjoyable for all accounts. Especially healers after the major fuck up by blizzard, making all gear spellpower (the lazy buggers).

And that is for those who are spell based dps, to take a look into themselves and see the difference between dps gear and healer gear. Cozz there is a difference, especially for shaman resto gear.

Us shamans are very much based on our mana regen. So the more mp5 we got the better we do, as we dont have the massive spirit priests/druids have nor the mana-return talent as paladins have. DPS spellgear from raids, especially 25 man raids have alot of crit or hit on it. Resto shamans can ofc go for those items too, but that would be rather stupid since its like taking up a gearspot that should have mp5 on it. So in most cases where there are sane resto shamans attending, they will pass on such items. However, we are in great need for gear with mp5 and haste on it. As one of the shamans strongest feats, the chain heal, was gimped in this expansion. Making it go from a 2 sec cast to a 2.75 sec cast. So haste and mp5 is important for shaman efficency.

What im saying is, that neck belongs around the neck of any healer, especially shamans. If i met a mage with such a neck without knowing who it was, i would suspect him of being a ninja and not having a clue about his class. But as such, the expansion horror of making it all spellpower has resoulted in many just seeing the "oh great, it has 4 more spellpower than mine, i'll need on it", while pretty much ignoring the other stats which would be to much more use for other people in the raid. This is not the first time i see this, god knows how many times i've lost the healer mace from heroic Nexus to a dps class, with the simple explenation that it has "more spellpower". Even to classes not able to use mace...its just moronic.

But as this is different i beg of you old, wise and mature people to drop the selfish act of needing on anything with greater spellpower and consider if the item has stats of more use to someone else. Atleast that masterlooters considers this. Now im ofc aiming at healer gear, as thats what i am. But i know of many a healer who shares this view and have the same problems occour quite often.

Anyways, i had great fun. You peeps are very good, so i look forward to more adventures alongside you

Wow, just....wow. How low can you get?

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=7575718467&postId=75748779247&sid=1#19

Read post 14 and 18.

Flame-bait and you fell for it in all honesty.

I agree that there's difference in a healer item and a dps caster item. That's why there should be a raid leader that is able to be unbiased and unselfish - and simply have master looter, even if the raid is "casual" and shit.

Flame-bait? hehe, never understood the whole point of it, so ye - guess im an easy target. I dont mind what people write, just cant get why they are so hell'bent on making these personal remarks for nothing. Then again, guess it says more about them than me.

I see what you are saying here Fendoor and usually it is the case that things like this happen.

But what the problem here is that there are alot of RPers in our raid that come along with probably less than optimal gear and see something like this drop. Now if the stats on it are a MAJOR increase to what they have there is no reason they should not roll on it...after all it is like saying I should not roll on something like leggings with high agility because the rogues have better use for it.

If you think the stats will help you more do feel free to explain that on raid chat but if it decided by the other roller that he really wants the item then I am afraid fair is fair. We could always go to DKP systems which would mean you would be waiting months on that item you wanted...and I do not think anyone wants to do that in this group of ours.

In the end of the day everyone puts in the same effort and thus is entitled to the same loot as everyone else. As long as its not something idiotic like a mage rolling on mail I do not see a problem on it.

Also Fendoor about the thread on SSL...You're easily annoyed, I think you are getting old

But seriously...I suggest let it drop...both sides

Im getting too old, i know i know. But i do like to have fun with people like that tho. I might be easily annoyed, but then again i blame the quality of which the SSL forum has steeped to because of the troll-squad. Do i mind feeding their rage-imploded minds? no. Do i mind them going after me with whatever they have? no.

Did i give them a taste of their own just to prove how stupid it really is? yes.
Did they see it? no, and it pleases me very much.

Anyways, i didnt want this thread to be litterd with a whole other discussion, as it was originally something that conserns alot of healers.

I do agree in principle, Fendoor, it's heartbreaking to see loot wasted. But in the defence of mages, they have been utterly screwed, and I mean raped with a giant pineapple, when it comes to itemization: for example, the only caster necks that drop in Naxx25 before Sapphi all have either mp5 or spirit... even the one with +hit! Blizzard are making mages have to roll on non-optimal items if they want to upgrade. so give 'em a break, they're already having to put up with healers rolling on +hit gear (not me, I hasten to add...)

ROFL.. that guy applied to EoL aswell it was horrible.. but seemed serious

LMAO tough, he's probly 10 and lying.. he was 18 in that topic, while applying to EoL as 15year old

The solution to your original post is pretty simple indeed, use for the bosses and stuff a lootmaster that has a brain (and knows what classes need what and what loot is out there.).

Just let the people that can use it and want the item /roll for it, highest mainspec gets the loot, nobody wants the item, offspec/RP or disenchant. It might just take a bit more time this way.

I wouldn't take the gnome seriously, Fendoor -- it's just a young guy deliberately trolling for fun. If you get "wound up" by him, he'll be laughing. The best option (which I use) is to join in the "piss taking" yourself. i.e. do humour back, not serious.

p.s. if I come on your raid I am going to ninja loot everything, ok, as I have no gear!!

I don't check this part of the forum too often, since my interest in raiding is small, thus why I haven't seen this thread before now.

The mage in question would be me, and I think the explanation for me taking the necklace would be something along the lines of the "not having a clue about his class" you suggested in your first post.

I thought the necklace would be a nice upgrade from whatever green one I was wearing before. I generally have no clue what items are best for me and not, often ending up asking the people in the group wether I should need on something that dropped. But I don't want to keep doing that every single time something that looks like it might be useful for me drops, and in this particular roll, I guessed myself instead. I'm sorry if it upset you, it wasn't my intention to ninja anything that someone else would have had more use of.

Dont worrie mate, i know you didnt roll on the neck to be mean. Its quite understandable. However, its just how its gotten after lazy blizzard made spellgear viable for every spellusing class. So the post was not to be mean, nor to show that i am upset, because im really not. I just thought it was an idea to inform this community of this, as we're probably going to raid more together. And as all, i too enjoy a good raiding community where we know each other and show consideration for others. As Arch did when he passed on loot that would been an upgrade for him aswell, but he passed because he got the last epic rolled for, and the others are in need for an upgrade aswell.

What got me bit hot-headed was your rather unneccesery comments on wow - forums, taking what i said here and twisted it for trolling fun on a discussion conserning something totally different. And my last post there wasnt personal either, it was just a "here - lets write as abusive as you and see how stupid it looks" kind of thing. Thought the starting line was a light give-away for that, but it was missed and i actually ejoyed it

But as Liontooh said, its best if we just drop it and get on with our dungeon crawling. I have made my point with this thread here, and im sure it will be taken into consideration in the future

and i dont think lesser of people not knowing his or her class, just for the note - im pretty smooth around the edges for people learning the game. However people who just do stuff to annoy people just for the nack of it, im having more trouble with

Fendoor, I'm pretty certain Minniwynn is nothing to do with Ryleen.
Unless I totally misunderstood something.

and @ Ryleen: OMG NINJA

Well, i might be wrong but the gnome on forums sorta admitted that he's the one who did so? But then again, if could be mistaken, and if so i appologize most cincierly.

A suggestion to everyone not wanting to learn the dreary art of itemization: Grab some lewt whore (excuse the expression) that knows what all classes need and ask what he/she thinks. If you ask in /ra, it will drown in the general clatter of looting. /w are easy to spot however, and you'r more likely to get a response, as it also feels more personal.

If it was an upgrade, Ry had every right to roll on it. Even if it's suited better to another class, it was an upgrade for her.

For example, as a hunter, a melee weapon is just there for the stats, does that mean that I can't roll on any melee weapon unless everyone else in the raid has it allready? If I did that, I'd be seriously hindering myself. It may not be entirely fair to take a melee weapon over a rogue, but a fair roll is the deciding factor in the end.

Possible solution: a 'one win per slot per raid' rule? The idea being that if you win a roll for a slot, say a shoulder item, you can't roll on any other shoulder item for that raid lockout period? This has two advantages, 1) gear isn't wasted, 2) people might look up the loot tables, see what can drop, and avoid rolling on less ideal drops to save their slot allowance for what they really want.

Well, i disagree Chow.

Its like the pugs back in the 70s of ZA where a warrior needs on the axe Trollbane, because its an upgrade compared his current weapon, at the same time a hunter needs on it because of his weapon is poorer too. If there was no hunter in need of it, sure the warrior could need it. However, as we all know that hunters work with agi and warriors with str - Hunters should get pri on that weapon.

So no, i dont think that all should roll even if it has "some" upgrade - Not do i think that rogues would apprechiate hunters needing on daggers with the excuse of "now i just need to get a good offhand".

Anyways, almost concidering deleting this thread which was just a "hey peeps, concider this" and has just reached its second page, where there are alot of conflicting opinions.

And yes, what Izaika suggest sounds reasonable for me. I know its a pug, but we should have some sort of rules about looting, else it will just diminish into chaos.

I have given up raiding a long time ago but in my opinion Fendoor got a point there. And indeed Izaika's suggestion sounds best to me. Anyway I am no part of this project and have less then anyone else a right to say something, just wanted to state my opinion.

Fendoor wrote:

Well, i might be wrong but the gnome on forums sorta admitted that he's the one who did so? But then again, if could be mistaken, and if so i appologize most cincierly.

Trust me...Minniwynn =/= Ryleen. Ryleen does not use SSL forums and has no reason to cause flame fights or troll. I do know who he is but stating names will just further the flaming.

You dont? he's on this forum to, didn't knew that was a secret name, anyway.. don't take (realm!)forums to seriously.

btw, we in EoL have a rule that if someone just won something in the same run, he can't win the next item to (if someone else wants it for mainspec that is ofc.)

We've allways run with a fair roll for upgrade system. I lost out on trollbane to an enh shammy, who didn't -really- need it. I didn't moan or complain, since he won it fair and square.

Also, it'd be unfair to tell people that they can't win more than one item per raid, because at the end of the day, someone will get upset that they weren't allowed to roll on a tier piece because they won a pair of bracers or something silly.

Our system has worked wonders in the past, we are a casual group, loot is nothing to be upset about. Personally, I have nothing but the tier shoulders that I -really- want out of Naxx, and I'm not really that bothered about it. I've set the group up so that we can all see the content, and have some fun at the same time. Loot is secondary, and getting upset just destroys the point of coming with in the first place.

Chowlawu wrote:

I've set the group up so that we can all see the content, and have some fun at the same time. Loot is secondary, and getting upset just destroys the point of coming with in the first place.

This is true. On the other hand, if the restos have nicked all the +hit gear and the rogues have nicked all the +strength gear, it's going to take us a very, very long time to wave hi to Kel'thuzad. Sharing the loot out sensibly means the raid as a whole is stronger and we're more able to take down the harder bosses.

I'm not too concerned about this issue, but after reading through this post I'd like to say that Fendoor has some good points.

Abit of thought into the rolling process won't hurt. I guess one should take a stance on what is more important, the individual or the Raid as a whole. Difficult question maybe seeing as the raid community is rather randomly put together atm.. I dunno.

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(slightly off-topic)

Anyways.. "Loot is secondary".. I've said it before and I say it again.. I call that bluff.. Cause that's all it is baby.. A big horrible bluff..

Rp'ers have a tendency to say that.. "It's never about the loot". Bullshit. It's allways about the loot. Why else repeat the instance over and over again?

If it was just to see the place you'd stop after 3-4 times. Everyone knows it's about the loot, it's just taboo to say so for RP'ers who supposedly is meant to be casual players. Is it not true that most people go all OH YEAH everytime they get a new piece of loot and link it all over the place to show it off? Yeah, it is.

So just admit it that loot is important to people.

And Chow.. you're the biggest loot whore of them all! HAHA

I think that Izaika's idea about the loot system was that you cant need on that particular slot again in that raid.

Example:

I roll on a necklace thats an upgrade for me, and i get it. Two bosses further another necklace drops which is slightly better. But because i already won a necklace in that raid, i cannot roll on it now. So its one upgrade pr slot each raid. I think it sounds fair