The state of things.

I had really high hopes for this raid group, but last night proved to me that this isn't going to go far, at least not under my leadership.

Too many people are content to grind out two wings, and leave it at that, and the ones who want to progress, the majority, we can't convince everyone.

There are two options, and I'll leave this to you.

One: We carry on with the two wings, and never even try anything else

Two: Every week, we take a few shots at Patchwerk, and then head for another wing if we can't. This is the only way we'll ever know if we're ready.

But, as my opening sentence suggests, I don't think I'm cut out for this, I'm failing as a raid leader.

So, unless people actively want me to raid lead, I'll step down and hand over to somebody else.

Unless you think I'm fit for the job, I don't belong as raid leader.

Possible alternate leaders: (Feel free to suggest more)

Krohlm ( He's lead before, and managed really well )
Garviel ( He knows all the fights, and can explain them well )
Alaster ( He's lead raids before, unless I'm wrong )
Nerissa ( She knows her stuff, better than most of us )

I'm sorry to spring this on you guys, I've had a really tough time in rl the last few weeks, and I've lost a lot of confidence in myself, and my ability to raid lead. As I've said earlier, I won't be there on sunday's raid, so this gives whoever is to take over a chance to try it out. ( if anyone )

-EDIT-

This is not to say that I don't want to lead, because I'll carry on as is, but if people want to sit in two wings forever, I'm not the person to choose.

Chow, after all you've done for the raiding I'd recommend you for a career in cat-herding. Any of the people you mentioned would suit the job nicely (except Neri...well, she'd do it brilliantly, but it would be terrible for her blood pressure ) but there's really no reason for you to stop. The problem isn't with your raid leading, it isn't with a lack of will to progress, it's with drama and whining. The best course of action I can see is to make it clear in raid descriptions what we'll be attempting and in what order, so that everyone will know exactly what they're signing up for. If anyone has a problem after seeing this and signing up anyway, they can be referred back to their calendar.

You already know I want you to continue.


(Probably the only way someone like me would be let into a raid anyway )

I am one of the guys that would gladly wipe on patchwerk to get him down.

And I just wanna say that I want you to keep leading the raids Chow. You were the one who started this project which i think quite a few of us never thought would be this succesfull and it just wouldnt be the same without you in the front.

Thats all.

You know some of my feelings already on this

It's not easy to be a riad leader- much less a raid leader of a group that aren't all freom the ame background and quite the same mindset that you might find in an actual raiding guild.... its going to be harder- but well you've started doing it- so....keep going!

From reports I hear you're doing a great job- and yea- just have a schedule of what you aim to achieve- like say you'll do 1 hour on patchwork before you steamroller- I'm doing the same with some of the achievement raids at the moment- give people something to work on... then reward them with some other bosses.

Stick with it- you will get past the bosses you're stuck on.

If I can help at all the offers still stand with respect to shitzle.

Chow, I think you're doing a fine job. I wouldn't want to do it, and I don't think I could. It's a lot of responsibility, I think raidleaders develop a sense of duty to the raid, where it's their duty to succeed, to progress. And when progression doesn't come fast enough, a raidleader often feels they -need- to find a solution, and so asks other people to help with a possible solution, and perhaps might phrase it poorly or the people asked might disagree with the request, might feel they're being blamed personally for the lack of progression, or that a particular criticism was aimed specifically at them, and then before you know it friends have fallen out and the rest of the raid takes sides... oh yes, I've been there before, believe me. No, I don't want to be raidleader. It takes care, determination, compassion and patience that I just don't have.

I agree with Crowley - when you put a raid on the calendar, note which wings and bosses you intend to try. That way, if people don't have the gold or the patience for progression-test wipes, they can decline. I do think we should continue testing ourselves on these troublesome bosses. Even if we don't down them, we can measure our progress by how close we get.

The hardest fights in our raids are the ones we have between ourselves.

Thanks for the support, it means a lot.

I'll be there for sunday, providing that my connection is up for it... It's been terrible the last few days.

Any case, we'll do OS, spider wing, and I don't think we'll manage Patchy, simply because the sunday group isn't as strong as the regular wednesday group ( Because a few of our best can't allways make it ) - But we can try anyway, if we want.

So so so do not want to lead another raid for as long as I live.
*coughs*
With that out of the way, Chow I have to agree with most of what Izaika/Nerissa said. The problem with raids is, not when the raid itself is taken seriously, but when things are taken personally. I said last night that raids where like the crusades in that 'there were as many reasons to go as people going', but in the end we all go to have fun.
For some that fun is loot, and others its' progression. Perhaps instead of hitting Patchwerk each week for a time before commencing on the two wings we know we can do with our eyes closed (No mentioning my inability to do the safety dance!) we alternate between trying both quarters. Of course this does entirely depend on having two priests in the party.

Other than that from what I've seen you're doing okay for a cat herder.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Military Quarter easier than Construction? Perhaps if we can get a Blood DK, two Priests and enough healers we could quite happily down the Instructor. If the situation calls for it, I am willing to respec Blood (for certain hp regen talents), though my dps will somewhat suffer greatly..

Though bare in mind I intend to stay as Unholy for the rest of the time. I can only play Unholy well cos I like to concentrate on diseases.. its how I play them. *shrugs*

EDIT: I would like to mention that I think chow has made an excellent raid leader. I do apologise for not attending sometimes when I've signed up (like today :/ ) but most RL things happen at the very last minute.

Unless I'm mistaken, the Bone Armor is now stealable again so mages can sub for priests on Razouvius.

oo...Kallesh I dunno...

Problem there is..*shudders* cloth armour..

And threat management means the bone armour stealing mages need to top of the threat charts. Meaning everyone else needs to be below them on the threat meters. meaning a logistical nightmare cause I know for a fact not everyone has omen. I also am not sure our healers will be able to take healing 2 tanks (holding the guards) as well as two mages.

Tank-spot does a good demonstration of the fight on you toob (10 man) but it explains everything you need to know about it

Tivak, the cloth armor might be an issue, maybe, but the entire point is that the bone armor absorbs ALL the damage, just as it would on the Understudies. You might note that if they take an unmitigated hit from Raz they tend to take a pretty large chunk of damage. The essential point is that the healers should not have to heal the mage-tank at all. It's just a consideration though, if we find we have no priests who are hit capped.

Regarding threat... I can generate a pretty stupid amount of threat and I'm sure some of the better geared mages can generate even more. Give me a small head start to get the aggro steady and I think it will be alright. As far as no Omen goes: first off "What the hell? Seriously? Not really clever in general." However, as long as we don't gabble wildly on Vent we can have someone watch omen and let those who are going to pull aggro have some warning.

The joy of the 10 man is that there are the orbs to MC with if you don't have hit capped priests. In the event we can't manage that, I'm more than happy to give spellsteal tanking a shot.

Quote :

Today i ran 25 man down this guy with 2 mages spell stealing a bone shield from the trash mobs (was being off tanked) and the shadow priest MC. Hope to have a video soon to show everyone you do not need 2 priest!

Source - http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f206/42142-naxxramas-instructor-razuvious.html

*nod* mages can keep threat up pretty high, and we have hunters to misdirect at the start as well. We could definitely use this tactic in future, if we like.

Now, we just need two mages.. Oh wait.

Tivak wrote:

... cause I know for a fact not everyone has omen...

Trying real hard to see a justifiable reason why anyone would not have Omen when raiding. I fail at it.

"I don't need it" - egoistical reason. Others need you to have it. Get it.
"It slows my computer down" - I don't buy it. Omen is a lightweight addon. Get it (since I'm guessing you probably haven't even tried, instead basing the "slowing down" on other heavier addons).
"I don't use addons, ever" - egoistical as well. You're basically saying that you're not willing to aid the rest of the group in expense of some leeway of your own (rather silly) rules. Make the rule "I don't use addons, except when raiding because then I need to adjust to other players' to not be the weak link". Get the addon.

In other words... get it, sillypants. xD

*coughs* That sounded way more harsh than it did in my head - oh well.


Chow, you should be proud that you pulled the people as far as you have, keep it up. Be strict when you need to and loosen up on trivial things and so on. You know what to do, mate. ;D

Doesn't sound harsh at all to me, just very obvious.
But I guess I've raided quitte a bit and it's very true, Omen is one of the required addons.
The only ones that don't need it (most of the time) are healers.

For the rest there is no excuse, make it a requirement or don't join might be an option? /shrug

Not going to meddle, raid the way you have most fun and like it GL guys!

Leaf wrote:

Tivak wrote:

... cause I know for a fact not everyone has omen...

Trying real hard to see a justifiable reason why anyone would not have Omen when raiding. I fail at it.

"I don't need it" - egoistical reason. Others need you to have it. Get it.
"It slows my computer down" - I don't buy it. Omen is a lightweight addon. Get it (since I'm guessing you probably haven't even tried, instead basing the "slowing down" on other heavier addons).
"I don't use addons, ever" - egoistical as well. You're basically saying that you're not willing to aid the rest of the group in expense of some leeway of your own (rather silly) rules. Make the rule "I don't use addons, except when raiding because then I need to adjust to other players' to not be the weak link". Get the addon.

In other words... get it, sillypants. xD

*coughs* That sounded way more harsh than it did in my head - oh well.


Chow, you should be proud that you pulled the people as far as you have, keep it up. Be strict when you need to and loosen up on trivial things and so on. You know what to do, mate. ;D

Nabs that can't control their aggro only need Omen. Hows -that- for egoistical!

How do you control it without a threat meter? Take a guess at it or spam fade (or whatever)? :P

Though I have to admit that a tank that gets raced by a DPS class in thread nowadays... kind of suck balls, assuming that he got the initial threat and have enough rage to build it.

*coughs* Hmm, a hit-capped shadowpriest, you say? Nope, I don't know where we'd find one of them.

It wasn't the hit cap that was an issue last time, it was the interrupts. We'll see what we can do, but as things are, we have three priests including yours, and we'll need two of them for the mind controls. That means that we're down at least one healer for the fight, which makes things a little more complicated.

That said, there's no reason we can't try. But, failing that, we can call in a heroic mage or two, and watch them get smacked around by the instructor.