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 Potential loot system

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Lyranne
Tivak
Chassandra
Emanee
Huyana
Siheld
Morgalyen
Archnazg
Chowlawu
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Chowlawu

Chowlawu


Number of posts : 202
Age : 34
Location : Sunny South Africa
Registration date : 2008-05-29

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PostSubject: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyMon Jan 19, 2009 8:37 pm

Right, here goes.

This system is a hybrid between what someone suggested to me, and a few of my own ideas.

Basically, you get a point for every boss you help bring down, this does -not- include wipes.

You will accumulate points up to 50, at a maximum

Then, when you make a roll on an item, these points will be added to your roll, and you will lose all of them if you win.

The points survive through raids, and you'll be able to use them in any raid that I'm leading. I can't expect other raid leaders to keep track of my points, and keeping track of the 40+ rp'ers we have at the moment will be tough enough.

This system gives the frequent raiders a slight loot advantage, while not discouraging new raiders from joining.

I won't say whether I'm for or against this, I post merely because I've been asked to implement a system and this is the fairest one I've come up with.

I value any input, and this is not a sure thing at all, it's just an idea that I want to put forward.

Discuss.
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Archnazg

Archnazg


Number of posts : 187
Age : 33
Registration date : 2008-07-15

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyMon Jan 19, 2009 8:42 pm

This sounds pretty good. I like it. If we're doings this weekly I think implementing this system would be beneficial. How would we store the points, etc.. keep track of how many we got?
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Chowlawu

Chowlawu


Number of posts : 202
Age : 34
Location : Sunny South Africa
Registration date : 2008-05-29

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyMon Jan 19, 2009 8:46 pm

I'll have to make a thread, and post all the names of people who are listed. Then I'll post the amount of points they have next to their name, and update at the end of each raid.
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Morgalyen

Morgalyen


Number of posts : 479
Age : 43
Registration date : 2008-05-26

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyMon Jan 19, 2009 9:36 pm

This sounds like the lucky points (or whatever it's called) system
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Chowlawu

Chowlawu


Number of posts : 202
Age : 34
Location : Sunny South Africa
Registration date : 2008-05-29

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyTue Jan 20, 2009 1:20 am

That is similar to the name of the loot system I got the idea from, but it's a little different to how it was explained to me. That system would give you points on a per-raid basis, while this is per boss. ( Since we often have people leaving and having to replace them )

It will have to be tweaked a bit, because if someone builds up points in Naxx ( The old Kara ), it may not be fair that they are allowed to use them in whatever Blizz gives us to replace the Sunwell.

We'll need to think on that, but for now I need more input before I think about implementing.
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Siheld

Siheld


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Age : 31
Location : Holland
Registration date : 2008-08-17

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyTue Jan 20, 2009 8:28 am

The Silverwing Outrunners used this aswell, and It works perfect Wink
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Huyana

Huyana


Number of posts : 86
Age : 41
Location : Norway
Registration date : 2008-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyTue Jan 20, 2009 9:08 am

Sounds pretty desent from my point of view, however this is going to mean shitloads of work from your end Chow - and if you miss one or two people might get pissy.

I have never used DKP or any other system before, but i think i remember from my days in Storm Lords that they had an addon that the raid leader used, giving points to people as he wished. Be it once pr raid, or two extra points to everyone because he was so happy we downd a boss he didnt think we would not down.

If it works in that way, you can just give everyone currently in the raid a point everytime we down a boss up to the total of 50?
You also then know how many points that certain individual has to spend in addition to his/her roll.

Just an idea, that might make stuff abit easier to keep track of for your sake Smile
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Emanee

Emanee


Number of posts : 507
Registration date : 2008-06-23

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyTue Jan 20, 2009 12:09 pm

EoL used this system, with getting points per item that was assigned to a player (2 points went to every player, 60 points got deducted from the winner).

Because you're working with members from differing guilds then you cant run that system add-on sadly... however you could use an EQdkp system to input the points people gain and lose rather than trying to keep track of a thread.

**removed link, dkpsite went boom somehow**

Everything thats input in the data base is currently done manually by myself and my O/H - and so you could easily just add every RP raider, and at the end of each raid add the raid- the players and the points accumulated - plus removing points from those who win items (adding the items or just doing an individual adjustment).

I know it *sounds* complex, but I think it would actually be better for you than a forum post... I'm sure there's someone who could lend you space to host it (with assistance on that side of things I could), and I'd be more than happy to explain it over ventrillo, or set it up for you.
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Chassandra




Number of posts : 199
Registration date : 2008-12-18

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyThu Jan 22, 2009 10:02 am

You should only loose your points if it's main-spec roll and others roll against you.
Noone would roll off-specc rolls otherwise.


...plus, Hubbit will win anyway Razz
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Tivak

Tivak


Number of posts : 182
Age : 39
Registration date : 2008-06-12

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyFri Jan 23, 2009 9:30 am

I must admit I myself am feeling a bit down when someone who is joining us for the first time wins say 3 or 4 pieces of loot and people who have been with us for a while lose that loot although they do deserve it.

My suggestion to this chow is rather than 1 point per boss make it one point per piece of loot. IE thats 4 points per boss if you dont get anything.
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Lyranne

Lyranne


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Registration date : 2008-05-27

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyFri Jan 23, 2009 11:25 am

Surely it would make more sense for points to be accrued only on those items one can use? Not to overcomplicate it, but warriors gaining points on cough-drops, and priests on Paladin loot seems silly and very unfair if people deliberately hold out. Also, how do the tier pieces fit into any of this? Do you lose out f you have one piece, but not belonging to the spec you are whilst at the current raid, or what?

Personally, I don't see much need for any of this. Yes, it's irksome when people come along and win lots of loot on their first run, but if we start bringing in rules that make us more long-term raiders almost guaranteed to start winning everything, then it'll only be detrimental to recruiting more RPers. We are, first and foremost semi-casual. There really is no need to start pretending we're hardcore, and doing so will remove a -lot- of the fun there is to be had.
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Nerissa




Number of posts : 49
Age : 44
Registration date : 2008-08-31

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyFri Jan 23, 2009 11:55 am

Actually, as it is, our current system rewards first-timers more than regulars. First boss kill: a piece of loot drops, all the regulars have already got it, or something close enough that it's not worth rolling against anyone on, so it goes to the newbie. Second boss kill, the same thing happens, lucky newbie. Third boss kill, something new and exciting drops, and everyone has equal right to roll, including the luck newbie. Newbie wins three, regulars win 0.

I don't mind helping fellow RPers gear up at all but when they join a raid in the greens and quest blues they dinged 80 in and leave better geared than I am after two months in Naxx I get slightly demoralised, loot whore that I am. Wink


Last edited by Izaika on Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Huyana

Huyana


Number of posts : 86
Age : 41
Location : Norway
Registration date : 2008-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyFri Jan 23, 2009 12:07 pm

I agree mostly with you Lyranne, however as both me and Quint have pointed out a few times now, who are we kidding with this?

We're RPers who want to do some more with this game than -just- RP, even if its one of the main reasons. I personally dont mind if a newcomer win ALL the loot in one raid, as long as he has use for it. It only means that next time around he will not need on it, and the raid will be of increased quality simply because this person has had these upgrades.

In short, we're mainly here for lewt so we can better ourselves and increase the raids potential, and chances to see more content. Anyone saying different really is just holding the raid back.

The whole "we're RPers, we dont care about loot, just fun" mentality is getting bit redicolous - as raiding IS alot of fun. Imagine the feel of this group when you finally down a boss you've had a hard time with over a long period of time? The raids self-esteem will rise sky-high, everyone will be patting each other on the back and be cheerfull.

But as such, the items that these bosses drop are valuable, and looting here should be focused on the raid as "whole".
Example: A healing mace drops, its slightly better than mine, and a biiig upgrade for one of the other regular healers. Concluding that the raid will have a larger benefit of another healer coming up in quality than me having a very small upgrade, i will not roll on this item.

(Note that im not regular here at all, just spamming ideas about how it would be best for yous)

Us here are not Hardcore, no one ever claimed so, but that does not mean one should just let it flow. Looting needs its rules to keep people together. There are more than enough pugs doing both 10 man naxx and 25 man naxx with huge success, and we're here because we like the people and the regularity of it. So to keep people here, one needs to have rules that everyone can agree on, else you might end up loosing a valuable person of your regular raids to a pug which he finds better and more promesing for his/her search for content.

(At work, writing fast, not sure i make sence - will look back later to delete the post if its just crap geek )
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Chowlawu

Chowlawu


Number of posts : 202
Age : 34
Location : Sunny South Africa
Registration date : 2008-05-29

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyFri Jan 23, 2009 4:28 pm

You'll gain points for helping down a boss, so even if nothing drops for you, the fact that you helped out gains you something.
(I don't like writing short posts, so I'll go on about a few other things in the meantime )

As things stand, we have a lot of healers and dps, too many in fact, so it's hard to balance groups so that everyone gets a turn. To this end, and to try and help the group progress, it's been suggested that you get a priority spot in the raid, if you were in the last one ( This means that the regulars will gear up faster, and the raid will therefore progress faster, at the same time, we'll allways have a few spots free free, since nobody can make every single raid night )

The drawback here, is that it may be a week or two before you get a spot in the raid if you manage to miss one of them, which doesn't seem quite fair to me. I don't know how to balance things so that the regulars who are diligent and all that get preferential treatment over the people who just come along for a fun night when there's nothing else to do, and don't really care about getting out of the proverbial Kara.

Just throwing ideas out, I need input, this is a democracy. ( Not really, I just want it to sound like your ideas count )
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Lyranne

Lyranne


Number of posts : 329
Age : 41
Registration date : 2008-05-27

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptySat Jan 24, 2009 12:18 pm

I wasn't implying that we should be 'oh-so casual' and not worry about loot, but rather that all these systems require an awful lot of back-room tallying. Regardless of what loot system you implement, I'll still feel cruddy having to roll against friends/strangers, so I won't see a benefit to +50 on a roll, as I'd feel even worse. I also get miffed slightly as I don't like to consider my main role that which I'm there as (especially as I've respecced half-way through runs to counter someone dropping out), and the -only- role I feel fairly okay with rolling is Holy, simply because there's such a limit to who can make use of healing Plate gear (so I'm winning by default anyway, for the most part). What that means is that I see my Prot and dps runs as being off-spec, so intend to role as such. Yes, I don't gear up, but at least I don't feel bad when people gift me something on a roll of a '12' as that shouldn't happen.
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Tivak

Tivak


Number of posts : 182
Age : 39
Registration date : 2008-06-12

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptySat Jan 24, 2009 12:51 pm

hmm.. I mis-interpreted this.

I meant more of a "per raid" basis.
Ie, you kill a boss.
You get 10 points,
You get a piece of gear,
you lose your points

In other words its worked out on raid every raid and is reset after

Although for simplicities sake it would become a -10 basis
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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptySat Jan 24, 2009 1:59 pm

Lyranne wrote:
Surely it would make more sense for points to be accrued only on those items one can use? Not to overcomplicate it, but warriors gaining points on cough-drops, and priests on Paladin loot seems silly and very unfair if people deliberately hold out. Also, how do the tier pieces fit into any of this? Do you lose out f you have one piece, but not belonging to the spec you are whilst at the current raid, or what?

Personally, I don't see much need for any of this. Yes, it's irksome when people come along and win lots of loot on their first run, but if we start bringing in rules that make us more long-term raiders almost guaranteed to start winning everything, then it'll only be detrimental to recruiting more RPers. We are, first and foremost semi-casual. There really is no need to start pretending we're hardcore, and doing so will remove a -lot- of the fun there is to be had.

^^
This!

As I've said in the other thread, this is all sounding far too serious. Sure if I ever get to 80 I'll look to raid every now and then but I can't see why people are getting so fussed about some purple pixels. Having a fair-for-all system which is as accepting of the newbie as the veteran is vital if you are to keep other RPers who just want to do the odd raid now and then. The odds are that I'd be only able to raid once or twice a month, but wouldn't care either way about whether I won or lost if it was fair, but might start to feel like I wasn't wanted/appreciated if I was always competing against people with points scored by having more time to play than me, which I am sure is not the aim here.
Basically, at the end of the day any system outside of the standard roll will be heaped against people, like Oppy and myself, who have limited time to play (when I have the internet!) and makes that side of the game less enjoyable if I know that I have next to no chance of improving my stats and thus being less effective (read dying a lot) in a raid.
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Quintilius

Quintilius


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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptySat Jan 24, 2009 2:02 pm

Oi! Lyranne.

You tanked yesterday innaxx and if a tanking piece dropped I wouldn't have minded at all that if you had rolled on it and won!

I'd be all "Roll, bitch! Roll!"

i think the luck point system is cool. Easy to understand and gives the regulars an edge, though not automatic win.
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Lyranne

Lyranne


Number of posts : 329
Age : 41
Registration date : 2008-05-27

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptySun Jan 25, 2009 11:48 am

How about this then: 10-mans, we have no loot rules whatsoever, and the 25-mans, which do require a certain amount of dedication to having certain stats (being hit capped is next to essential if you want to pull your weight) we implement a system that benefits the long-termers more (as most casual people will find that their dps will be dire on heroic, simply because they won't be near hit cap). I still think accruing +50 on a roll is steep, so how about instead of backroom numbers, people with additional points simply do a /roll of what their maximum number can be (maybe 150 if it's completely agreed upon though I think a maximum of 125 is fairer). This means they have an edge, but they won't have one that means a roll of 30 becomes 70. It's a compromise, I grant you, but a fairer one then having to keep tabs on potentially close to 50 people's rolls/presense within each raid.

That also means I'll stick to the default roll, as I don't want an edge over friends (whereas if the numbers are done away from the role, I know how likely it is for people to go 'Oh, she hasn't rolled for ages, so must be on +50 by now' and I really don't want that).
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Feronius

Feronius


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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptySun Jan 25, 2009 1:40 pm

Yeah Razz this seems very much like the LPsystem discussion on the EOLforums..

Some wanna progress first, others care about casual-playing and fairness more then doing what's right for speeding trough content.
Maybe you should ask one of the EoL officers about info or so once? It's pretty much the same discussion we've had for ages and we just made our own LP-system version in the end Very Happy don't think it's that hard to modify with the right addons..

(One thing.. not sure if this works outside of the guild to, so then it will be a lot of manual work.. or you need a different addon)
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Chowlawu

Chowlawu


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Age : 34
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Registration date : 2008-05-29

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptySun Jan 25, 2009 7:20 pm

If you think about it, a player who raids in all 25 man content we've managed so far (6 bosses) that's a maximum of six points per week.. That's 10 weeks of raiding to get to the point cap. I mean.. really, is there any chance that someone will come with us for 10 weeks, and not win a single main-spec roll? And if they do, maybe they deserve a +50 modifier over another player who's just joined us, since he'll be really upset if he raids with us for 10 weeks, not getting a single upgrade, an then someone new takes the one that he's been after for those 10 weeks.

I'm trying to come up with a fair system, a lot of people had issues in tbc when the new guy came in and suddlenly the item that the veteran had been after drops, and the newbie wins. I was the newbie, and I don't want to see that happen again.

Still, it's a matter of fairness. Tonight, a helm dropped which was an upgrade for me, and it had a lot more hit than my current one. I passed it to Faali, since he was still in a blue, while I was in my engineering crafted one, which is still rather good.

In the end, we need to find a solution that suits the raid. I want this to be casual, but I also want to get a little further. I've been asked to many Naxx 25 PuG's that have cleared the place week after week, but I want to do this as a team. Prove the rp community has what it takes to do the impossible and band together, perhaps accomplish something great.
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Stiiko




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Registration date : 2008-12-02

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PostSubject: Re: Potential loot system   Potential loot system EmptyThu Jan 29, 2009 12:50 am

I think this lucky point system sound good even if there will be ALOT of work to do with it. Would be nice if someone crafty could put together an addon but that is probably even more work Razz

As you said chow 1 point per boss is not alot at all. Naxx has 15 bosses total. So if we ever down kel thuzad and start the farming regualar will still have to go almost a month without loot to get the max amount of Points possible. So I think this will be fair both for veterans and newbies alike. (Sanctum should only give 1 point since the drakes are no harder than trash in other instances)

About getting priority on spots in raids. I just think that if you are with the raid on wednesday you should get priority on sunday (or whatever day we go that week) since you are saved and cant go with another group. Giving priority for being in the last raid sounds like a bad idea to me since it will make people feel like they HAVE to join or else they wont have a chance on getting in again for the next couple of weeks.

If I wanted to see the inside of Naxx i would be content with the AO naxx10 raids but I want to beat the challenges that are 25man only too and I know that if we keep doing just the first 6 bosses then alot of people will get tired many of which are core players that show up every time simply because they have done the fights week after week and got everything they need weeks ago. So if we want to keep this raiding group alive we need to make progress else it will die by itself sooner or later.
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