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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:36 pm

Rifki wrote:
Mhm. So what do you think of people that RP undead that can use the Holy Light? I personally find it very, very weird as.. undeath itself is an abomination to the Holy Light, imo. Yet.. we must be tolerant if they give a proper excuse for it, right?

The problem is...The only viable excuse has been taken by a one off character who serves the scourge. I am afraid I just do not agree with forsaken saying they willingly use the light...Hell even just saying that should get them jumped on by other forsaken.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:55 pm

I'm glad I'm not the only one that finds it odd that people RP forsaken that can wield the Holy Light..

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And I love you all. Goodnight.

Love you too.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:45 am

Not to cause a furor, but the game explicitely portrays -many- forsaken wielding the light, which in turn, for many people starting RP would perhaps make them think "Ooh, they can be healers". In addition, due to the game being a FUDGE (LWWFGM) - that stands for Fundamentally Underthought Diresregard and Generic Employ of Lore Which Works For Game Mechanics. Prime example is again, people new to RP are going to see that forsaken can spec priests as Holy, so to all intents and purposes, their stance that a forsaken can wield the light is backed up in more ways -in the game- than the lore-stated fact that they can't.

Yes, it's a shame that Blizzard didn't think certain things through, but it is, and again I state this, A FUDGE.

For those that know the lore, or even have a preconcieved notion of what the forsaken are, this is an annoyance brought about by game mechanics. One can hardly blame a person for assuming what's in the game = fact.

I myself am aware of why they're called forsaken, so wouldn't have a light-wielding character associated with them, but I'm not going to nerdrage if I see someone who is unaware RPing in such a manner. At the end of the day, the quality of the RP is paramount, and the knowledge of the lore superflous if they're actually a joy to interact with.

Also: at the end of the day, come Cataclysm, we'll have people RPing Shadow-Priest Taurens. Surely that's a greater concern?
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:50 am

Lyranne wrote:
Also: at the end of the day, come Cataclysm, we'll have people RPing Shadow-Priest Taurens. Surely that's a greater concern?

About the same as Unholy-spec Tauren DK's
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:24 pm

Gurfang wrote:
Lyranne wrote:
Also: at the end of the day, come Cataclysm, we'll have people RPing Shadow-Priest Taurens. Surely that's a greater concern?

About the same as Unholy-spec Tauren DK's
They would have a plausible reason for being such... i.e. been resurrected and trained to be a killing machine in service of the Lich King, and - if I'm not mistaken - losing the powers/abilities they had before they were turned.

But a Tauren turning to the Shadows as a choice, is a different thing entirely. I don't doubt there will come a semi-plausible reason for that too, but it's a much more disturbing thought, imho.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:32 pm

How would rape be treated between the different races/cultures in WoW? This is a spin off question thanks to the ancient rome, and Sparta/Greece, discussion.

I would think rape to be rather common within the Troll society, at least before the creation of the Horde with Thrall as an overall leader. Maybe it may even go as far as being something that is looked upon as favorable for a young male Troll, to "take a woman" - a sign of strength. Some Tauren tribes may have "rape" as an nonpunishable offence, that is only looked down upon.

Discuss.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:40 pm

Leaf wrote:
Gurfang wrote:
Lyranne wrote:
Also: at the end of the day, come Cataclysm, we'll have people RPing Shadow-Priest Taurens. Surely that's a greater concern?

About the same as Unholy-spec Tauren DK's
They would have a plausible reason for being such... i.e. been resurrected and trained to be a killing machine in service of the Lich King, and - if I'm not mistaken - losing the powers/abilities they had before they were turned.

But a Tauren turning to the Shadows as a choice, is a different thing entirely. I don't doubt there will come a semi-plausible reason for that too, but it's a much more disturbing thought, imho.

Based on that, I'd point at the Grim Totem tribe and say that there is the reasoning for it as a possibility.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:47 pm

Of course, but that doesn't make it any less disturbing. ;)
Like I said, plausibility may be there but it's still disturbing.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:47 pm

I'd suggest all this is taking a comic-book game with ripped off themes a bit too far. cyclops
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:00 pm

Discuss mah presenteeed subject!!!1one
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:28 pm

Lyranne wrote:

Also: at the end of the day, come Cataclysm, we'll have people RPing Shadow-Priest Taurens. Surely that's a greater concern?

If a living tauren willingly uses shadow his or her life is at serious risk from the shadow alone, in fact he or she will most likely die...also seeing as tauren priests do not even worship the light...Shadow has nothing to do with them. Ignoring lore because game mechanics say otherwise is a equal problem for ALL races.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:36 pm

2x post

Quote :
I would think rape to be rather common within the Troll society, at least before the creation of the Horde with Thrall as an overall leader. Maybe it may even go as far as being something that is looked upon as favorable for a young male Troll, to "take a woman" - a sign of strength. Some Tauren tribes may have "rape" as an nonpunishable offence, that is only looked down upon.

If we base some of WoW on RL cultures these things would be easier to work around yes. Problem is Blizzard do not (understandably) want to go -that- deep into racial views
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:37 pm

Sometimes a blade of grass is just that.

(quoth the zen master)
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:22 pm

Liontooth wrote:
2x post

Quote :
I would think rape to be rather common within the Troll society, at least before the creation of the Horde with Thrall as an overall leader. Maybe it may even go as far as being something that is looked upon as favorable for a young male Troll, to "take a woman" - a sign of strength. Some Tauren tribes may have "rape" as an nonpunishable offence, that is only looked down upon.

If we base some of WoW on RL cultures these things would be easier to work around yes. Problem is Blizzard do not (understandably) want to go -that- deep into racial views
Blizzard may not, but players - especially role players - might need to delve into uncharted territory and discuss whether something is or is not acceptable in the world of warcraft. Dicussing possibilities and/or propabilities based on what we have been given by the more (understandably) prude Blizzard will only create more depth to characters and the community that those characters live in - more life so to speak, with all it's blemishes and unfairness. Discussing things based on our real life history and trying to incorporate that into the game history is not really what I'm after, at least not a direct injection. Instead I'm looking for a linear comparison, looking for similarities, basing the ideas on WoW history that in turn has been compared to our own, and drawing conclusions out of those ideas to get a clue whether a certain behavior is correct or not for a certain race or culture.

I don't really know if I'm making any sense anymore to be honest, but I had a point. The point was that the previous discussion about sexuality was taking ideas from our own history and directly incorporate it, instead of trying to find something similar to our history in Warcraft lore and then discuss probable conclusions from that, and maybe be able to incorporate something in how we act in the game.
So instead of discussing whether rape/sexualities/mental ilnesses/murder/incest/bladibla actually exists, lets instead discuss how it can exist, how it's being viewed by the common man/woman and what laws might be in order. In other words, lets assume it does for arguments' sake.

Example:

Gnomes do this, this and that and have this history. Where in our history have we had something similar, roughly speaking? Can the culture in our world - at that time - fit in with the Gnomes' (again, at that time)? Will/would that affect how a Gnome would react to X today or is it too long ago?
Sort of like laying a puzzle. First see if a piece fits, and then see if the picture looks alright or not. If it doesn, you try to find another piece.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:28 pm

Leaf wrote:
How would rape be treated between the different races/cultures in WoW? This is a spin off question thanks to the ancient rome, and Sparta/Greece, discussion.

I would think rape to be rather common within the Troll society, at least before the creation of the Horde with Thrall as an overall leader. Maybe it may even go as far as being something that is looked upon as favorable for a young male Troll, to "take a woman" - a sign of strength. Some Tauren tribes may have "rape" as an nonpunishable offence, that is only looked down upon.

Discuss.

Since we are at war with the Alliance, a male of the Horde raping a female of the Alliance (or vice versa) is certainly seen as an act of strenght for the rapist, and humiliation for the victim, because the victim is the enemy anyway, who cares about the enemy's feelings.. That's how I interpret it. Within the Horde, I'm not so sure.. It maybe is used to show who the strongest race is?
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:02 pm

Rifki wrote:
Leaf wrote:
How would rape be treated between the different races/cultures in WoW? This is a spin off question thanks to the ancient rome, and Sparta/Greece, discussion.

I would think rape to be rather common within the Troll society, at least before the creation of the Horde with Thrall as an overall leader. Maybe it may even go as far as being something that is looked upon as favorable for a young male Troll, to "take a woman" - a sign of strength. Some Tauren tribes may have "rape" as an nonpunishable offence, that is only looked down upon.

Discuss.

Since we are at war with the Alliance, a male of the Horde raping a female of the Alliance (or vice versa) is certainly seen as an act of strenght for the rapist, and humiliation for the victim, because the victim is the enemy anyway, who cares about the enemy's feelings.. That's how I interpret it. Within the Horde, I'm not so sure.. It maybe is used to show who the strongest race is?

I am not so sure it is viewed as that, I do think there is alot of view that any sexual act should remain within the race. The orcs and tauren are known as "honourable savages". This would say to me that, ok they would kill indiscriminatly in a warband perhaps, but they would not defile the fallen like that.

This is not to say that rape would not happen within races though...In fact I think it could very well happen depending on situation.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:45 pm

Now this discussion has turned to rape? This thread delivers.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:13 pm

Quintilius wrote:
Now this discussion has turned to rape? This thread delivers.
You're welcome. :P

But really, I might have a reason for bringing up the discussion. Say someone of the prominent Rpers (not one that's prominent for bad reasons) was raped or raped someone, how would it be treated, and how would the different races/cultures/tribes/communities react if they knew either the victim or the offender, or both? What if the offender/victim was in a guild of yours *points to the reader*, what would be the ramifications, would it be a considerable difference if the victim or offender respectively was in the guild as well?

You can see where I'm going with this, just trying to get the ball rolling here. :P
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:26 pm

Among the Horde races, I can see rape happening in the old troll inter-tribal wars, and possibly not carrying so much of a stigma due to their less-than-stellar record on women's rights, but I doubt the New Horde would have it running rampant either way (although like all war crimes, it would be near impossible to actually stamp out).

Orcs were too noble for it, but I suspect the demonic bloodlust changed that, and probably lingers on.

Tauren...I kinda doubt it. While their whole little simple small community thing could be rife with rape, oppression and general ignorance, this isn't an angle Blizz have used to my knowledge so I'll just assume it's not the case and Tauren are just better than humans like that.

Even more than with the racism, it's something that WoW Lore can't dwell on and people could be forgiven for not wanting to RP about in any way (not that that would excuse them going off on one OOCly at someone who did try to). I did deal with Crowley being a rapist rather badly at first (again, with the ill-advised attempt to turn him into a refugee from George R.R. Martin land) but I think I redeemed myself as I became a better RPer and made it one of the major reasons he evolved from an annoying roguish Mary Sue trickster archetype into a tortured, pathetic monster hiding behind a grin. I think it's not quite so much something inexperienced RPers should shy away from, though, because the problems that would arise in RPing it are more to do with personal maturity than skill at RP.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:00 pm

Not really keen to get into the rape discussion too deeply, but I'll chime in a brief addition.

Crowley wrote:

Orcs were too noble for it, but I suspect the demonic bloodlust changed that, and probably lingers on.

I can easily see the Dark Horde clans (Black Tooth Grin and Blackrock specifically) raping human women as display of victory, seeing as these orcs are fallen completely into depravity.

For Horde orcs, I doubt rape would be a common thing. Orcish women are some of the most empowered women of any race in the game, and are not objectified as they are in many warrior cultures in history.

I'd guess the only playable race in the game that would be likely to show a cultural disposition towards rape would be trolls, but even among trolls I would think only among the more savage tribes, probably not the Darkspear. For everyone else it comes down to depravity of the individual and not really a product of culture.

Warcraft is a more sanitized world than medieval/ancient earth, so its highly unlikely that a noble of stormwind, for example, would visit a bride at her wedding to exercise his privilege.

As for how its punished... in the Alliance I'd guess its a crime like any other. In the Horde, its probably a case of getting a axe stuck in your head if your depravity is open enough to piss folks off.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:44 pm

Liontooth wrote:
Lyranne wrote:

Also: at the end of the day, come Cataclysm, we'll have people RPing Shadow-Priest Taurens. Surely that's a greater concern?

If a living tauren willingly uses shadow his or her life is at serious risk from the shadow alone, in fact he or she will most likely die...also seeing as tauren priests do not even worship the light...Shadow has nothing to do with them. Ignoring lore because game mechanics say otherwise is a equal problem for ALL races.


Actually Lion, that was my point. I was referring to the game mechanics allowing forsaken to wield Light being less worrying than tauren wielding shadow, not referring to its plausibility in a lore-based fashion.

And again I point out that it's not -ignoring- lore to play along with game mechanics as they're what are most readily available to the average player. As I've said before, the average person is not patient enough to scour reams of text for a game they play to have fun. Those of you with such stamina that you can read all of that and manage to take it all on board are not as common as you'd like to think (hence the term elitism being thrown about).

Regarding rape:

I don't know about the mating rituals of the various races, but I can imagine that many would be very bestial, even with the Orcs presence. The fact that rape is non consensual sex would though always be frowned upon where males and females are equal (which within the Horde, they supposedly are). Trolls that have remained tribal and resolutely not joined the Horde may well partake in it, though I again think it'd be more a case of bestial sex, rather than non-consensual sex. Of -all- the races in the game, I'd say Alliance races are more likely to actually rape a female (let's be fair here, in nature rape is a preominantly human thing to do, excluding male spiders impregnating unsuspecting female - which is only that way because they'd likely be eaten before the act could take place). As much as people like to paint this image of trolls, even at their most tribal as being cruel and pretty vile, they're only based on human tribes and traditions, and are far less removed from humanity than people like to think.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:25 pm

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Actually Lion, that was my point. I was referring to the game mechanics allowing forsaken to wield Light being less worrying than tauren wielding shadow, not referring to its plausibility in a lore-based fashion.

And again I point out that it's not -ignoring- lore to play along with game mechanics as they're what are most readily available to the average player. As I've said before, the average person is not patient enough to scour reams of text for a game they play to have fun. Those of you with such stamina that you can read all of that and manage to take it all on board are not as common as you'd like to think (hence the term elitism being thrown about).

It IS ignoring lore to do something that is not plausable in the lore just because game mechanics want all races to have a fair share of specs. And, as I pointed out before, it takes about 10 minutes to read up on your race...I am sure people spend more reading some of the stories people come up with on WaL.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:00 pm

*bump*

Let's see the point about game-mechanics-say vs. lore-says discussed.
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:41 pm

Hinun wrote:
*bump*

Let's see the point about game-mechanics-say vs. lore-says discussed.

your right

some here think that game mechanics out rules lore.. ok whihc means undead using the light

so with this in mind this is what i will rp next

a jedi knight with robes and a lightsaber, because i know i can get the robes and hood and there is a sword that drops in steam vaults that looks like a lightsaber, yes i know there isnt any jedi/sith in wow but hay game mechanices let me to look and play like one so there goes i can rp one..

also game mechanics never let me did so you can also rp your imortal, and ive also killed all the faction leaders, so that makes my dwarf paladin hard as nails and a imba dwarf..

anyone want to prove me wrong feel free, but thats what SOME poeple on this server seem to think

*mubbles undead using the light, grumble grumble*
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PostSubject: Re: The Thread for all the Shit we just couldn't let go of!   Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:06 pm

*chuckles* i can well imagine the response if you really did go around being a jedi Very Happy


The point is, there is all kinds of things that are possible to do in WoW but, as the old saying goes, 'just because you can do something, it doesn't mean that you should' Wink

We're given a setting and a storyline that give people lots of opportunities for rp so why must people keep trying to play outside that setting and story line.

Using your example, there is nothing stopping anybody rp-ing that jedi...but if they want to play a jedi, why not just go play star wars?...but now i'm going off topic.


So, back to our forsaken holy preist. Yes, by game mechanics, holy implies tht you use the light, but the lore says that the light should destroy a forsaken that tries to weild it (except for blizz's own 'speshul' npc's of course Razz ). What we can easily say is that the Forgotten Shadow is a religion. There are beings of shadow that can be considered deities, therefore, forsaken preists that work to heal can be considered holy and use the power of shadow to heal.

I've seen the arguements against coming up with such explainations to get around game mechanics and i don't agree with them. It's not that difficult to work around them, but just ignoring game machanics makes just as little sense to me.

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